back from the brink

In article , Ken Blake, MVP
wrote:

My personal favourite was always people who used the Trash/Recycle Bin
as storage for files they wanted out of the way, but still accessible,
with the inevitable disaster following.

i know someone who when visiting a client, first empties their trash.

if they bitch, he lectures them about storing real stuff in the real
trash can.

his clients no longer use it as storage.

If it were me, I would no longer use him for service. Even though I
agree with his point of view, what he does is mean and nasty, and can
even hurt someone who *doesn't* use it for storage, but wants to get
back something that was deleted.

then they can restore it from a backup.

Maybe. Unfortunately, not everyone has a backup.

then they're screwed.

anyone who doesn't have a backup *will* lose data and likely *much*
more than one file.

not only that but i'm sure he lectures his clients about having proper
backups, so this fabricated scenario isn't even going to happen anyway.

And the file may have
been created *after* the last backup was made. Even if he has the file
in a backup, restoring it from a backup is much more trouble than from
the recycle bin.

time machine takes snapshots every hour, so at most, they'll lose 1
hour's worth of work.

The whole point of having a recycle bin is to enable you to easily get
back a file you thought you no longer wanted, but changed your mind
about.

no it isn't. it's a trash can for files that are considered trash.

calling a recycle bin doesn't change that. do you pull bottles and
newspapers out of the recycle bins where you live?

if someone changes their mind about a file, then they can pull it from
a backup. that's what backups are for. as i said, if someone doesn't
back up their stuff, they *will* lose data at some point, and not just
a file they thought they didn't need, but the entire drive with files
they absolutely *do* need.

unfortunately, some people learn that the hard way.

On 2015-04-12, nospam wrote:

if someone changes their mind about a file, then they can pull it from
a backup. that's what backups are for. as i said, if someone doesn't
back up their stuff, they *will* lose data at some point, and not just
a file they thought they didn't need, but the entire drive with files
they absolutely *do* need.

unfortunately, some people learn that the hard way.

You can't fix stupid.

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On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 11:33:53 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Ken Blake, MVP
wrote:

My personal favourite was always people who used the Trash/Recycle Bin
as storage for files they wanted out of the way, but still accessible,
with the inevitable disaster following.

i know someone who when visiting a client, first empties their trash.

if they bitch, he lectures them about storing real stuff in the real
trash can.

his clients no longer use it as storage.

If it were me, I would no longer use him for service. Even though I
agree with his point of view, what he does is mean and nasty, and can
even hurt someone who *doesn't* use it for storage, but wants to get
back something that was deleted.

then they can restore it from a backup.

Maybe. Unfortunately, not everyone has a backup.

then they're screwed.


Of course. Nevertheless, not having one is very common. I have no
statistics, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that fewer people
don't have backup than those who do have them



anyone who doesn't have a backup *will* lose data and likely *much*
more than one file.

not only that but i'm sure he lectures his clients about having proper
backups, so this fabricated scenario isn't even going to happen anyway.

And the file may have
been created *after* the last backup was made. Even if he has the file
in a backup, restoring it from a backup is much more trouble than from
the recycle bin.

time machine takes snapshots every hour, so at most, they'll lose 1
hour's worth of work.

The whole point of having a recycle bin is to enable you to easily get
back a file you thought you no longer wanted, but changed your mind
about.

no it isn't.


It certainly is. If you want to delete a file and not have the option
of getting it back, don't put it in the recycle bin. Just hold down
the shift key when you delete it.

The difference in this respect between recent versions of Windows and
older ones is that the older ones didn't have a recycle bin, and if
you deleted a fine it was gone without a way to get it back (yes, I
know that you can often get back files using an undelete program like
Restoration, but most people don't know that, and even if they do know
it, it's not always possible). Adding the recycle bin to Windows added
the capability to easily change your mind and get back something you
thought you didn't want.


it's a trash can for files that are considered trash.


Of course. But like almost everyone else, every now and then, I make a
mistake, realize I shouldn't have deleted that file, and want it back.
The recycle bin can save your butt when you make some kinds of
mistakes.


calling a recycle bin doesn't change that. do you pull bottles and
newspapers out of the recycle bins where you live?


No, but I occasionally pull out of something else I threw away, like
mail I thought I didn't need.



if someone changes their mind about a file, then they can pull it from
a backup. that's what backups are for.


No, it's not. Although that's a secondary use of a backup, it's not
its main purpose. Its main purpose to be able to get back files when
something goes wrong, like a head crash, user error, or theft of the
computer.


as i said, if someone doesn't
back up their stuff, they *will* lose data at some point, and not just
a file they thought they didn't need, but the entire drive with files
they absolutely *do* need.


Yes. And as I've said many times in newsgroups and forums "said, it's
not a matter of *whether* you will have such a problem, but when."


unfortunately, some people learn that the hard way.



Yes. I'm glad we agree on something g

On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 19:14:57 +0100, Tim Streater
wrote:


The difference in this respect between recent versions of Windows ...

What's Windows got to do with anything? If you're gonna give advice on
a cross-platform issue (backups, the Trash/Recycle Bin), please make it
cross-platform advice.


We've been talking about the recycle bin. As far as I know, that term
is used only in Windows.

However I now see that this thread has been cross-posted to four
newsgroups, two of which are about apple computers. Sorry, I hadn't
noticed that earlier. If I had, I either wouldn't have posted at all,
or trimmed the newsgroups I was replying to the one I read it in:
rec.travel.europe.

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 11:16:15 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Ken Blake, MVP
wrote:

My personal favourite was always people who used the Trash/Recycle Bin
as storage for files they wanted out of the way, but still accessible,
with the inevitable disaster following.

i know someone who when visiting a client, first empties their trash.

if they bitch, he lectures them about storing real stuff in the real
trash can.

his clients no longer use it as storage.

If it were me, I would no longer use him for service. Even though I
agree with his point of view, what he does is mean and nasty, and can
even hurt someone who *doesn't* use it for storage, but wants to get
back something that was deleted.

then they can restore it from a backup.


Maybe. Unfortunately, not everyone has a backup. And the file may have
been created *after* the last backup was made. Even if he has the file
in a backup, restoring it from a backup is much more trouble than from
the recycle bin.

The whole point of having a recycle bin is to enable you to easily get
back a file you thought you no longer wanted, but changed your mind
about.

In all my years computing, I cannot recall taking longer than a few
seconds to realise I'd dragged the wrong file into the Trash.

--
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Tim Streater wrote:.

But I kept asking you if you'd copied the old Pages from the old
machine to the new one. You keep insisting you have but now it turns
out you haven't.

The downgrade came with Yosemite. I have an older version on iPad and old
laptop.

--
biblioholic medievalist

On 2015-04-12, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 11:33:53 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Ken Blake, MVP
wrote:

Maybe. Unfortunately, not everyone has a backup.

then they're screwed.

Of course. Nevertheless, not having one is very common. I have no
statistics, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that fewer people
don't have backup than those who do have them

I suspect that's much less the case with Mac users, since Time Machine
comes built-in and using it is literally as simple as connecting a hard
drive to the computer and clicking "Use as Backup Disk" when prompted.

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On 12 Apr 2015 23:37:58 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

On 2015-04-12, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 11:33:53 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Ken Blake, MVP
wrote:

Maybe. Unfortunately, not everyone has a backup.

then they're screwed.

Of course. Nevertheless, not having one is very common. I have no
statistics, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that fewer people
don't have backup than those who do have them

I suspect that's much less the case with Mac users, since Time Machine
comes built-in and using it is literally as simple as connecting a hard
drive to the computer and clicking "Use as Backup Disk" when prompted.

I don't personally know any Mac users who do that.

On the other hand, I back up all vital data on PC1 to PC 2. All vital
data on PC 2 is backed up onto PC 1. Then both PC backups are backed
up onto a 4Tb external drive on PC 1. Backups are controlled by Second
Copy http://www.secondcopy.com/ which also is on PC 1.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

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[ extraneous newsgroups trimmed ]

On Sunday, 12 April 2015 11:47 -0700,
in article ,
Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

However I now see that this thread has been cross-posted to four
newsgroups, ...

You have the OP to thank for that, Ken. Erilar is confused on many
levels and a plethora of techical matters. While not technical in
nature, this unfortunately includes netiquette.

P.S.

$ ls -alF .Trash/
total 0
drwx------ 2 dritz staff 68 Apr 12 22:31 ./
drwxr-xr-x@ 255 dritz staff 8670 Apr 12 22:27 ../

$ sudo ls -alF /.Trashes/
total 0
d-wx-wx-wt@ 2 root wheel 68 Apr 12 16:17 ./
drwxr-xr-x@ 51 root wheel 1802 Apr 12 22:29 ../

:oof::

- --
David Ritz
Be kind to animals; kiss a shark.

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On 2015-04-13, Eric Stevens wrote:
On 12 Apr 2015 23:37:58 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

On 2015-04-12, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 11:33:53 -0400, nospam
wrote:

In article , Ken Blake, MVP
wrote:

Maybe. Unfortunately, not everyone has a backup.

then they're screwed.

Of course. Nevertheless, not having one is very common. I have no
statistics, but if I were a betting man I'd bet that fewer people
don't have backup than those who do have them

I suspect that's much less the case with Mac users, since Time Machine
comes built-in and using it is literally as simple as connecting a hard
drive to the computer and clicking "Use as Backup Disk" when prompted.

I don't personally know any Mac users who do that.

And how many Mac users do you know?

On the other hand, I back up all vital data on PC1 to PC 2. All vital
data on PC 2 is backed up onto PC 1. Then both PC backups are backed
up onto a 4Tb external drive on PC 1. Backups are controlled by Second
Copy http://www.secondcopy.com/ which also is on PC 1.

That's all well and good, but is nowhere near the user experience of
connecting a drive and clicking "Use for Backups".

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR