Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe

On Jun 25, 8:48*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
a writes:
The article says nothing about defects in the unit assembled in Italy.
It does say the issue is associated with how it had been attached,
torqued, and shimmed to the correct position when it had been attached
to the 'next assembly up'.

Incorrect assembly is a defect.

Now for your assumption and allegation to be correct you'll simply
have to provide some evidence the part in question was incorrectly
torqued and shimmed to the next assembly up by the Italian firm.

Based on the facts presented, that the part that had been incorrectly
mated to the fuselage was manufactured in Italy is what would be
called in a logic class incidental and gratuitous information. Such
information in academic settings is often used as a red herring, a
device to mislead. I'm surprised you made the unsupported assumptions
you did. .

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
Flaps_50! writes:

Where in the article does it say the Italian parts are substandard? As
I read it it's an assembly problem (shimming and bolt torque) which
takes place in the US...

Yes. The defects are in the assembly, not the hardware itself (as I
understood
the article). Thus, unqualified or careless workers, inadequate QC, etc.,
which, unfortunately, is exactly what I'd expect from an average Italian
supplier.

With what have Italian Companies supplied you over the past few years? In
what way were they defective?
--
JohnT

Mxsmanic wrote:


If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time I've read about an
Italian company screwing things up.


And you somehow think that sort of thing is unique to Italian
companies?

After ~30 years of working in various aspects of the engineering
profession, with a goodly load of supplier qualification work in
that time, I can tell you with some confidence that the country in
which a given company is located has precisely zero to do with
whether or not they're going to be an acceptable supplier.

Bob M.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Flaps_50! writes:

Where in the article does it say the Italian parts are substandard?
As I read it it's an assembly problem (shimming and bolt torque)
which takes place in the US...

Yes. The defects are in the assembly, not the hardware itself (as I
understood the article). Thus, unqualified or careless workers,
inadequate QC, etc., which, unfortunately, is exactly what I'd expect
from an average Italian supplier.

And is your experience with supplier selection and qualification
as extensive as, say, your experience in piloting?

Bob M.

In article ,
lid says...


And you somehow think that sort of thing is unique to Italian
companies?


I cannot help but notice that this aviation expert, always ready to
correct professionals' factual information, never cites a qualified
source. All his information comes from Newsweek, USA Today etc. It would
seem for all his zeal in contesting others' facts he is not very
enterprising in cementing his own understanding of issues.

I certainly hope this laziness does not extend to his piloting
activities, otherwise _bad things_ could happen!

Mxsmanic wrote:
JohnT writes:

Lots of people would consider that Italian technology is at least as good as
anything emanating from Chicago.

Then Boeing must have picked the wrong Italian partner. And this appears to be
an issue with workmanship, not technology or design. The tails were simply not
put together correctly, implying unqualified, careless, or lazy workers.


Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal.

If anything, it says something about the Italian quality control who let
the parts out in the first place, and Boeing quality control who let the
parts into the assembly line.

If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time I've read about an Italian
company screwing things up.

There are a number of classic stereotypes concerning European cultures, and
unfortunately many of them have a strong basis in fact.

I wonder why Boeing put anything in Italy. It's not like the Italians have any
strong airlines that would be buying dozens of 787s, and if all Boeing cared
about was price, they could find cheaper suppliers in other countries.

In news wrote:

JohnT writes:

Lots of people would consider that Italian technology is at least as
good as anything emanating from Chicago.

Then Boeing must have picked the wrong Italian partner.

Must have been Fiat.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN

Bob Myers writes:

And you somehow think that sort of thing is unique to Italian
companies?

No. It afflicts companies in Latin countries to some extent, depending on how
macho the country and culture are. Some other non-Latin countries have the
same problem. You can recognize a culture like this by its high levels of
poverty and corruption.

After ~30 years of working in various aspects of the engineering
profession, with a goodly load of supplier qualification work in
that time, I can tell you with some confidence that the country in
which a given company is located has precisely zero to do with
whether or not they're going to be an acceptable supplier.

My experience and training have shown significant cultural differences that
cannot be ignored.

Tom P writes:

Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal.

The number and magnitude of mistakes they make depend a great deal on
corporate and social culture.

I recall Akio Morita describing such a problem. Sony was building Trinitrons
in both Japan and the USA. In both countries, the tubes had to meet the same
tolerances. Nevertheless, the company found that the Japanese tubes were
always far closer to perfection than the USA tubes.

Finally, management figure it out. The Japanese always tried to get things
perfect, no matter what the accepted tolerances were, whereas the Americans
didn't care whether it was perfect or not, as long as it fell within the
tolerances.

To fix this, Sony made the tolerances far tighter for the USA tubes. Their
quality then improved significantly.

It was all about culture.

If anything, it says something about the Italian quality control who let
the parts out in the first place, and Boeing quality control who let the
parts into the assembly line.

The best way to ensure quality is to build it right the first time, not to
throw out half the inventory during quality inspections.

JohnT writes:

With what have Italian Companies supplied you over the past few years? In
what way were they defective?

I recall a pair of Gucci shoes that fell apart about a month after I bought
them, and a wallet from the same company that had a similar lifespan.

I have a refrigerator and air conditioner built in Italy that have worked well
for years.

Nothing prevents an individual company from resisting cultural tendencies, but
it's difficult.