KLM-Air France

Anybody have thoughts on this deal? I've heard rumors that the E.U. has
already given an informal - or formal - greenlight to the deal. This seems
kinda odd given the E.U.'s tendency to scrutinize deals that create BIG
companies.

Rich

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"ITRADE" wrote...
Anybody have thoughts on this deal?

There are multiple threads of discussions on:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/

I've heard rumors that the E.U. has
already given an informal - or formal - greenlight to the deal.

I believe it's informal. The CEO of KLM said in a Dutch programme that they
checked with several EU agencies and discussed them. So, the interviewer
asked hhim if he had gotten the green light... his reply was that he was
sure there wouldn't be any problems, because they (Air France + KLM)
wouldn't have made the public announcement just to withdraw it later.
Something like that...
Greetz,

*tada!*

Anyone heard anything about what they'll do with their frequent flyer
programs? Merge? Scrap? Leave as they are?

Gerry

"AJC" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:27:20 GMT, "ITRADE" wrote:

Anybody have thoughts on this deal? I've heard rumors that the E.U. has
already given an informal - or formal - greenlight to the deal. This
seems
kinda odd given the E.U.'s tendency to scrutinize deals that create BIG
companies.

Rich

In article ,
AJC wrote:

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 15:27:20 GMT, "ITRADE" wrote:

Anybody have thoughts on this deal? I've heard rumors that the E.U. has
already given an informal - or formal - greenlight to the deal. This seems
kinda odd given the E.U.'s tendency to scrutinize deals that create BIG
companies.

Rich


Mixed reactions here. Sadness that a national institution, and the
world's oldest airline (yes, I know Qantas claims the same) is going

actually they do recoqnize they started a few months after KL

to lose it's independance, but acceptance that something had to happen
in today's climate. Concerns about the very different working
characteristics of the two nationalities, but also positive views on
the potential of such an alliance, both hubs with room for expansion,
both linked with the European high speed rail network, networks with
very little direct overlap, they compete directly on just two routes I
believe. Hopefully the EU will require slots being made available for
other carriers in the NL-F market, in which case I would expect to see
Easyjet start AMS-CDG. Apparently the KL/NW partnership is continuing
as usual, it will be interesting to see how this all fits together,
will NW join Sky Team, what about KL's other partners, MH, KQ, etc?
Interesting times ahead.
--==++AJC++==--

Same here - we should be so lucky!

Gerry

"AJC" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 13:07:14 +0100, "Gerard Farrell"
wrote:

Anyone heard anything about what they'll do with their frequent flyer
programs? Merge? Scrap? Leave as they are?

Gerry


No news yet, I'm a member of both, ideally I'd like the opportunity to
combinethe two in to one account.
--==++AJC++==--

AJC wrote:
Mixed reactions here. Sadness that a national institution, and the
world's oldest airline (yes, I know Qantas claims the same) is going
to lose it's independance, but acceptance that something had to happen
in today's climate.

In a way, I admire Air France. In the face of Oneworld and Star, Air France
decided to start its own alliance, and contrary to others such as Swissair or
KLM, they persevered and grew Skyteam into something that is now quite
respectable.

Meanwhile, Oneworld was resting on its laurels, even going as far as telling
Swiss last year that it wasn't interested in growing. But with criticisms that
BA was now shrinking and becoming irrelevant compared to Skyteam and Star on
the one hand, and to Easyjet/Ryanair on the other hand, BA made a 180 and
scrambled to accept Swiss.

Looking back, it would be interesting to look at whatever decision KLM took
(or didn't take) which lead that airline becoming a "beggar" instead of a
leader. What happened to prevent KLM from growing its alliance after it got
Northwest ?

Concerns about the very different working
characteristics of the two nationalities,

The french can provide the food/wine/FAs, the dutch can provide the mature,
serious management. On the other hand, for all its flaws Air France has
managed to transform itself from the ultimate civil service organisation with
frequent strikes, overstaffed, unlimited subsidies etc into a respectable
corporation ready to be privatised. And they have managed to grow a small
alliance into something respectable. So one has to admit that AF may be better
than KLM.

Again, what went wrong with KLM ? It used to be the respectable airline with
AF being the basket case.


but also positive views on
the potential of such an alliance, both hubs with room for expansion,

I think that the big potential is the potential for NW, Continental and Delta
all being part of Skyteam. Skyteam will have a great sales force which will
give a USA face to flights transiting through CDG or AMS. And it will be a far
greater force than United or American.

Also, United is in a bind. Its european partner is hubbed at Frankfurt, but
United really wants to be hubbed at LHR. And American has consistently failed
to leverage Oneworld because it always asked for too involved a wedding with
BA , prompting refusal from authorities. This may be changing now though.


Initially, the KLM routes may have much value because they can't be moved from
AMS to CDG. But once the EU signs a new deal with the USA, Air France would be
able to move KLM's routes to CDG. That is the danger.

However, in a way, if the 2 remain distinct, perhaps each airport can bid for
a flight and the lowest bidder wins, and this would instill competition and
lower prices between CDG and AMS airports.

But if it becomes apparent that Air France will want everything at CDG, then
Aéroports de Paris won't feel the need to be very competitive, and Schiphol
will end up shrinking. One big advantage for AMS is that it is a single
airport. Paris has 2 main airports. Transit between the 2 is a pain.


both linked with the European high speed rail network, networks with
very little direct overlap, they compete directly on just two routes I
believe.

It will be interesting to see the impact of high speed rail and of course the
low cost carriers. I have a feeling that AF/KLM's regional routes may be
decimated by rail and low cost carriers.

"Wet fart" wrote in message
...
AJC wrote:
SNIP

Also, United is in a bind. Its european partner is hubbed at Frankfurt,
but
United really wants to be hubbed at LHR. And American has consistently
failed
to leverage Oneworld because it always asked for too involved a wedding
with
BA , prompting refusal from authorities. This may be changing now though.

Well, its not that simple/extreme. With * UA has available hubs at LHR
(BD), VIE (OS), and CPH (SK).

Rich


--
Visit America's Aviation Headquarters:
www.usaviation.com

"Gerard Farrell" schreef in bericht
...
Anyone heard anything about what they'll do with their frequent flyer
programs? Merge? Scrap? Leave as they are?

I got an e-mail from KL informing me that changes will me made starting
April 2004.

Sjoerd