Brazil Starts Fingerprinting U.S. Travelers

Rejnold Byzio wrote in message ...
"Hatunen" :

On Thu, 1 Jan 2004 22:57:35 +0100, Rejnold Byzio
wrote:

"Hatunen" :

That's a real stretch. And rather an insult to those who
actually suffered under the Third Reich, to compare their
experiences with what travelers to thr US must undergo.

The Nazis began with fingerprinting and photographing their
enemies too.

And we all know how it ended.

They began with a lot more than that.

Of course!
Using them as scapegoats.
Violating their human rights.
Disposessing them.
Putting them in concentration camps.
Torturing them.
Killing them.

In the Washington Post account of the BA flight that was held on the
tarmac, one passenger recounted how this Middle Eastern woman was
interrogated for 30 min. or more regarding why her husband wasn't with
her. The passenger, whose name was NOT Middle Eastern, or Eastern,
also mentioned that he was not questioned.

This war on terrorism is a slippery slope.

Yup. One should never be so afraid as to sacrifice individual
liberty. Wasn't it Patrick Henry that said "Give me liberty or give
me death."


Lil

Hatunen wrote:

And we all know how it ended.

They began with a lot more than that.


Well, you already have a concentration camp. When you'll start executing
the prisoners?


--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail:

On 2/01/04 0:07, in article ,
"Hatunen" wrote:

They began with a lot more than that.


One curious point is that the Germans starting stamping "J" or
Juden on German passports at the request of the Swiss, who
were having trouble will "too many" Germans coming into Switzerland.
They want to be able to tell more easily who was Jewish and who was not.

The press mentions today had an article which dealt with this problem.
Historical revisionism of the best kind;

Earl


***

January 2, 2004

New Swiss Law Pardons Those Who Aided Jews

By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

ENEVA, Jan. 1 (Agence France-Presse) ‹ A new law took effect on Thursday
pardoning Swiss citizens who were penalized ‹ even jailed ‹ for helping Jews
escape from Nazi Germany, nearly six decades after the fact and too late for
many who died with the burden of misplaced shame.

Their crime was considered a violation of the neutrality of this
land-locked, mountainous country bordering Germany ‹ a stance that
disclosures over the last decade have shown was not so sacrosanct as once
thought.

The new law acknowledges that these so-called offenders "acted out of
altruism" and many "fell into total misery after their condemnation,"
according to comments by the Swiss Federal Council, or government.

As of Thursday, those sentenced for having helped victims of the Nazi
government can now ask to have the judgment annulled, the Swiss Justice
Ministry said.

They or their surviving relatives have five years to do so, for any judgment
involving the period from 1933 ‹ when Hitler took power in Germany ‹ until
the end of World War II in 1945.

Though the aggrieved parties' court records will be cleared, they will have
no claim to any financial compensation, the ministry said.

According to historians, several hundred Swiss citizens lost their jobs and
were fined and some were sent to prison for helping victims of Nazi
oppression flee Germany or for offering them shelter in Switzerland.

During World War II, Switzerland officially took in about 300,000 refugees
but it turned away at least 20,000 others, most of them Jewish.

Switzerland's president apologized for the country's wartime refugee policy
in 1994, before the extent of its impact was fully acknowledged.

A subsequent five-year inquiry into concessions that Switzerland made to
survive as a neighbor of Nazi Germany showed that the government preached a
form of neutrality that it did not always practice.

The 600-page report, released in March, revealed that Switzerland's
political and economic establishment contributed to the Holocaust and the
Nazi war machine.

"The refugee policy of our authorities contributed to the most atrocious of
Nazi objectives ‹ the Holocaust," said a Swiss historian, Jean-François
Bergier, who led the inquiry.

On 2/01/04 1:42, in article ,
"DCHeretic" wrote:

What many non-Americans do not understand is that fingerprinting is not
considered an affront to civil rights in the United States. Many professions
require that new hires be fingerprinted. Banks will often request a thumb
print when someone opens an account. Americans have taken these measures to
ensure their security and the security of their identities.


I think most cosmopolitanized Europeans know about the generalization
of fingerprints in the US although may think they are more universal that
they are. They do associate it with being classed as a criminal however.
Even a cosmopolitanized Jew who does not eat ham will shudder if served
it and have to push it away. For a Jew or Moslem this is filthy meat.
The context is there and can't be changed.

Similarly, Americans make negative comments about Europeans having national
identity cards, this being thought to also be universal (by Americans)
and overly intrusive. Yet Americans go through all sorts of contortions
with regard to using state driver's licenses as, effectively, national
identity cards!

One is required, in boarding a plane in the US to have a "photoidentity".
Yet false ones are not that hard to obtain. A false French identity card
can be too but with an inordinate amount of effort and not an activity
of amateurs. So, indeed, one can see the utility of fingerprints in
the case of the identity anarchy of American (50 different states, 50
different driver's licenses.

We have noticed that using our American or French passports as identity
documents within the US causes some consternation. One prison entry control
asked us "but don`t you have a driver's license" on seeing our US passport.
I told the guy he could see our French driver`s license and he gave up,
opting for a official document of the US Government, the passport. It
is falsifiable but that is a Federal crime.

Earl

On 2/01/04 3:57, in article ,
"Keeger" wrote:

So they take a high moral ground, comparing America with Nazi Germany,
and then they say, "so we are going to do the same thing!" LOL!


I think the image problem is with Herr Bush and his surrounding group
of Gauleiters!

Earl

"Earl Evleth" schreef in bericht
...
I think the image problem is with Herr Bush and his surrounding group
of Gauleiters!


Come on Earl, no need to go that low. While I don't like Bush and his ilk,
it is unfair to compare them with the Nazis. We need to remain vigilant, but
at this point in time the Bu****es are not Nazis.

Sjoerd

On 2/01/04 11:41, in article ,
"Sjoerd" wrote:


"Earl Evleth" schreef in bericht
...
I think the image problem is with Herr Bush and his surrounding group
of Gauleiters!


Come on Earl, no need to go that low.

I felt a deep need, and inner urge! Absolutely overpowering!

While I don't like Bush and his ilk,
it is unfair to compare them with the Nazis. We need to remain vigilant, but
at this point in time the Bu****es are not Nazis.

I was, of course, joking, but often a truth spoken in jest.

First, there is some worry "even" in the US by ultraconservative
libertarians that the current administration is out for a power
grab by "big government" and "big business". All you have to do is roam
around on www.cato.org to find that out, or look up Pat Buchanan and
"The American Conservative".

Since fascism is a form of decadent socialism gone hyper
nationalistic, you will not find "fascism" of this form
in the USA. You will find it in the form of populism
of the type that Buchanan or Perot represented. Buchanan
is anti-Semitic but an economic nationalist, which is out
of style these days. Never forget that Americans smile
a lot so an American fascist will smile, not sputter like
Adolf did.

But the dangerous form totalitarianism in America lies
in a different portion of the right. It will have some
religious aspect so the religious right and their
cultural warfare with a more socially liberal America play
an important role.

But mostly it is the plutocratic element which is in power, internationalist
in character and unilateral. They wish to spread the American
form of Capitalism world wide.

Bush and his current administration will use their "God Bless yous"
and prayer breakfasts, and the Wall Street Journal`s op-ed page
to bring the word of God to all the people of this earth.
The word of God, for them, is "money" and they wish to
control everything with the view of maximizing the take.

But alas, we have nothing to compare the Bush gang with so
is must be Herr Bush and his surrounding Gauleiters to
create some image of warning.

Earl

Well, you already have a concentration camp.

Actually we had some in WWII as well. Most Americans want to
forget this, but we interned American citizens of Japanese origin in
concentration camps. In many cases these people lost everything
they owned.


Casey

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 01:51:42 +0000, barney wrote:


the nazi party --began-- with a great deal --less-- than any of that, from
which one can not very usefully conclude that any political movement with
modestly radical proposals is heading toward nazidom, or isn't, or could
be, or mightn't be.

However Mein Kampf had already been written, and the promises were there.
It perhaps took people to indulge in wishful thinking and convince
themselves the book was mere rhetorics and they were really not going to
do it.

This said, sure, it's always easier to take a stand early on before the
tide grows.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:44:08 +0000, Casey wrote:

Well, you already have a concentration camp.

Actually we had some in WWII as well. Most Americans want to
forget this, but we interned American citizens of Japanese origin in
concentration camps. In many cases these people lost everything
they owned.

To the extent that it's now a reason for shame, it's definitely not an
excuse for the Guantanamo camp though.