With The World Environment Day Conference.....

"Jack May" wrote in message
...

"Disgruntled Customer" wrote in message
...
"Stan de SD" enscribed:

In some cases, yes. There is plenty of data out there that shows that
certain minorities have lower levels of hs/college graduation, have
lower
standardized test scores, etc. than the white majority. Conversely,
there
is
data that other minorities have higher test/graduation levels, than the
white majority. Is it a coincidence that the groups that statistically
perform better are "overrepresented", while those that statistically
perform
worse are "underrepresented"? Is it "racism"? Or is it merely a logical
outcome based on the inputs?

More obfuscation to cover racism.

Oh yes, the race card used by people that have no proof. You have no
reason
to make an assertion that is obviously false to anyone with experience
working in a company, which probably excludes you


EEO and AA measure against the pool of job seekers for a particular
class
of jobs not the population as a whole. Whether colleges are producing
unbalanced results is their problem (which colleges do take affirmative
steps to deal with).

If they take affirmative steps, how come only a percent or two of
electronic
engineering graduates are women. Seems a long ways away from any
successful
solution.

Once a company is large enough (the rules don't apply to small
companies)
you can compute the confidence that the company distribution matches the
pool distribution.

No you can't. You are just making an assertion that has no reasons from
you why it should be true

My company has a goal of hiring from the top few percent of the top
schools.
We spend a lot of effort to accomplish that goal because the top people
accomplish so much more than the average graduate in the skill areas we
need. Obviously we don't meet the pool distribution for whites, Asians,
and
Indians since our employees are way over represented for those groups.

We hire only US Citizen because that is require by the Federal Government.
That is obviously does not match the pool distribution pool of engineering
graduates who are overwhelmingly non-US Citizens. Is the Government
running
an illegal segregation program with a very well known law?

I worked for a large company that hire in the bottom quarter of the class
because they just needed cheap bodies for their type work.

Neither company matches the pool distribution. There are a lot of
strategies by different companies and few if any hire along the lines of
the
pool distribution.

By the way I make the hiring decision for the projects I run. I am given
zero input on who I should hire. My personal goal is to hire the best
qualified because they will tend to be more successful on doing the
sophisticate level of work that is required in my advanced technology type
contracts

After the first wave of successful suits, people learned not explicitly
express their bigotry; but the statistical evidence catches you anyway.
Even when you manage to keep your mouth shut. Then you whine like a
stuck
pig about quotas.

You obviously are totally ignorant in how companies work. What advantage
does it give a company to reject a person that is well qualified to help
the
company make more money than a less qualified person.

You have no mechanism, no proof, no rational for the actions of the
company,
just a large amount of hate and bigotry for a lot of people. Maybe you
should take a course in managing your bigotry.

Well put, Jack. We may have our disagreements elsewhere, but you're 100% on
the mark here...

In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:

"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message
...
In ba.transportation Stan de SD wrote:

....

Good questions. Do you feel that anything should be done
about those minority groups that underperform?

Stop hiring and promoting individuals on the basis of race.

Yeah, that will solve the underperformance real quick.

In ba.transportation Jack May wrote:

....

If they take affirmative steps, how come only a percent or two of electronic
engineering graduates are women.

Cite?
I know it's low and going down, but 1-2% seems way too low.
Also EEs are not the only pool for technical jobs. Math,
computer science, physics can also contribute, among others.
(Althoug my experience is that people with engineering degrees--
even in seemingly unrelated fields like Chemical--are better
problem solvers.)

"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message
...
In ba.transportation Jack May wrote:

...

If they take affirmative steps, how come only a percent or two of
electronic
engineering graduates are women.

I stand corrected. It is 7% of BSEE degrees in 2000. Have not found the
data for MSEE which is mainly what we prefer to hire.

http://www.nae.edu/nae/cwe/cwemain.n...U?OpenDocument

I think software degrees for women are 25% or so. At meeting on one
project I manage, I typically see about 15% women software engineers, but
these are women that are clearly above the programmer level.

These meeting also prove one of my pet unproven theories that beautiful
women tend to be much smarter than average looking women.

A lot of these engineering women are incredibly beautiful with great
personalities. I think it comes from genetics where the rich smart guys
tend to get the more beautiful women which leads to their daughters being
both smart and beautiful.

I have read that women are the majority in Chemistry graduates and I think
high in biotech, but I have not searched for the data

Cite?
I know it's low and going down, but 1-2% seems way too low.
Also EEs are not the only pool for technical jobs. Math,
computer science, physics can also contribute, among others.
(Althoug my experience is that people with engineering degrees--
even in seemingly unrelated fields like Chemical--are better
problem solvers.)

We hire more than software and electrical engineers because we are mainly
looking for outstanding technical people. Smart people can usually learn
new areas very quickly which is a high priority requirement for us. We
seldom have people working in the same area for a long time. The diversity
of our work is too high for one subject experts.

I have not seen any trend for chemist to be smarter, but we don't hire many.
We do have a chemist I know, but she is about 75 and still working. She has
not worked in chemistry for a long time.

Merlin Dorfman wrote:

In ba.transportation Jack May wrote:

...


If they take affirmative steps, how come only a percent or two of electronic
engineering graduates are women.


Cite?
I know it's low and going down, but 1-2% seems way too low.
Also EEs are not the only pool for technical jobs. Math,
computer science, physics can also contribute, among others.
(Althoug my experience is that people with engineering degrees--
even in seemingly unrelated fields like Chemical--are better
problem solvers.)



Then again sometimes problems suddenly appear. In a job search this
spring we had 2 very well qualified female candidates who were among the
three we recommended for on site interviews. Suddenly the
administration decided that we should only consider candidates who had
already completed their degrees even though past practice and the add
said the requirement was that the degree be completed by the summer.
Suddenly the two female candidates weren't under consideration. Magic
how that happened.

..

"Frank F. Matthews" wrote in message
...

Then again sometimes problems suddenly appear. In a job search this
spring we had 2 very well qualified female candidates who were among the
three we recommended for on site interviews. Suddenly the administration
decided that we should only consider candidates who had already completed
their degrees even though past practice and the add said the requirement
was that the degree be completed by the summer. Suddenly the two female
candidates weren't under consideration. Magic how that happened.

Since you are inside the company you should have been able to find out the
reasons. Why didn't you? I certainly ask questions if there is a glitch.

It is my decision to hire or not hire because the person will be working for
me on my project. If there is a problem it is me that has to be convinced
there is a problem.

Our glitches are usually from Government regulations rather than company
policies.

Are there no women working in the company, or without any information you
can only imply that there is discrimination against women?

In ba.transportation Jack May wrote:

....

We hire more than software and electrical engineers because we are mainly
looking for outstanding technical people. Smart people can usually learn
new areas very quickly which is a high priority requirement for us. We
seldom have people working in the same area for a long time. The diversity
of our work is too high for one subject experts.

I have not seen any trend for chemist to be smarter, but we don't hire many.
We do have a chemist I know, but she is about 75 and still working. She has
not worked in chemistry for a long time.

I was referring to Chemical Engineers; I'm aware of only one
Chemist that I've worked with, and he (1) figured out that working
in that field with only a BS would mean a career of washing test
tubes and (2) had done a lot of programming as a hobby and was able
to get a job in that area, and then learn software engineering
(which is not at all the same thing).
My point was that engineers have learned how to solve problems
in a way that scientists, mathematicians, etc., may not have.

"Merlin Dorfman" wrote in message
...
In ba.transportation Jack May wrote:

...

We hire more than software and electrical engineers because we are
mainly
looking for outstanding technical people. Smart people can usually
learn
new areas very quickly which is a high priority requirement for us. We
seldom have people working in the same area for a long time. The
diversity
of our work is too high for one subject experts.

I have not seen any trend for chemist to be smarter, but we don't hire
many.
We do have a chemist I know, but she is about 75 and still working. She
has
not worked in chemistry for a long time.

I was referring to Chemical Engineers; I'm aware of only one
Chemist that I've worked with, and he (1) figured out that working
in that field with only a BS would mean a career of washing test
tubes and (2) had done a lot of programming as a hobby and was able
to get a job in that area, and then learn software engineering
(which is not at all the same thing).
My point was that engineers have learned how to solve problems
in a way that scientists, mathematicians, etc., may not have.

Well, I have solved plenty of problems myself (BsChE, Cal Berkeley '95) ;O)

"Jack May" wrote in message
...

"Frank F. Matthews" wrote in message
...

Then again sometimes problems suddenly appear. In a job search this
spring we had 2 very well qualified female candidates who were among the
three we recommended for on site interviews. Suddenly the
administration
decided that we should only consider candidates who had already
completed
their degrees even though past practice and the add said the requirement
was that the degree be completed by the summer. Suddenly the two female
candidates weren't under consideration. Magic how that happened.

Since you are inside the company you should have been able to find out the
reasons. Why didn't you? I certainly ask questions if there is a glitch.

It is my decision to hire or not hire because the person will be working
for
me on my project. If there is a problem it is me that has to be convinced
there is a problem.

Our glitches are usually from Government regulations rather than company
policies.

Are there no women working in the company, or without any information you
can only imply that there is discrimination against women?

I can tell you that in many industries there is defintely a double standard
regarding male and female engineers, but it typically favors the female over
the male. I worked for a company that manufactured capital equipment for the
semiconductor and memory disk industries (CMP and planarization tools, wafer
edge polishers, cleaning equipment, etc.) and our engineering staff was
about 25% female. If you were a male, you were pretty much expected to work
50-60 hours per week, travel on short notice and support the customers. If
you were a female, you could pretty much get by on 40 hours/week and any
travel was of the "business meeting variety" (overnight trips, eat a nice
dinner, meet for a few hours, come home the next evening). I spent about 15
of the first 24 months on the road, and I never made an overseas trip with
more than 24 hours notice (the longest one lasted about 3 months).
Personally, I didn't mind the travel, as flying as a MAC crewmember in the
USAF had accustomed me to life on the road at an early age, and I enjoyed
having the chance to work and travel in Europe and Japan. However, when we
were busting our asses 60+ hours per week trying to install equipment,
develop processes, and bring customer's equipment online, I never ONCE saw a
woman engineer working alongside us. I didn't see women working late at
night in the R&D lab, or on weekends when we were trying to finish our
experiments for a report that was due the following Monday. I did see quite
a few women getting promoted to managerial positions, which created friction
since many of them never had the 'stick time' with either the equiment or
the customers, and simply did not understand the issues that those of us "in
the field" had to deal with. I also noted an interesting difference w/r/t
how issues with a subordinate were handled when there were conflicts in the
company. In my experience if a superior (director or executive level) has
some issue with an engineer or technician, the male managers were more
likely to put themselves on the line, hear out the subordinate, and stick
up for them or accept responsibility if they thought they were right, while
women were more concerned with pleasing their own superiors and
sacrificing/blaming them when expedient. One of our hardest working and
trustworthy engineers got burned by a female supervisor who had no idea what
he was up against because she had never "paid her dues" and had no
appreciation/empathy for his situation. Not a good way to maintain morale...

Merlin Dorfman enscribed:
In ba.transportation Jack May wrote:

...

If they take affirmative steps, how come only a percent or two of electronic
engineering graduates are women.

Cite?
I know it's low and going down, but 1-2% seems way too low.
Also EEs are not the only pool for technical jobs. Math,
computer science, physics can also contribute, among others.
(Althoug my experience is that people with engineering degrees--
even in seemingly unrelated fields like Chemical--are better
problem solvers.)




--
Feh. Mad as heck.