Immigration patrols on domestic Amtrak

Merritt Mullen wrote:
wrote:

ISTM that a problem is, despite having selected you
randomly, IME these people still treat you like a criminal
when they question you.

If they were taught to use their manners when they
first talked with people and only go into 'agressive'
mode when you give the wrong answers, people might
be more sympathetic about the job that they have to do.

Why do you think that is not the case? Have you had a bad experience?

Hasn't everyone had a bad experience with a Customs officer while
traveling at one point or another?

Merritt Mullen wrote:
wrote:

How would one prove citizenship?

That's easy. Since American citizens are not required to have proof of
citizenship, but alien residents are required to have proof of alien
status, anyone without proof of citizenship or alien status must be
assumed to be an American citizen! grin

Excellent point.

Could one get free travel to Europe by claiming citizenship? I'm an
illegal Andorran.

At Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:59:37 -0700 wrote:


On Jul 16, 12:51 pm, Hatunen wrote:
Generally, when one talks of national ID cards one means
something all residents are required to have. It would be well if
everyone agreed on just what is being referred to.

The problem is that while there is no "official" national ID card we
are required by law to have, to effectively function in society we
must have a official state issued ID card (driver's license or
substitute). (Unless one spends their entire life living under a
bridge eating scrap food).

It wasn't that long ago that a person only had to get a social
security card when they grew up and started working. But now the govt
requires you get one at birth.

I don't understand why elementary schools require a kid's SSN to
register. Is the 5 year old kid gonna get taxable income at recess?
Actually, I don't undestand why colleges require it either.

Infants are now "acquiring" monetary assets, generally in the form of
things like college savings accounts (deposited by parents,
grandparents, etc.). I don't know if these assets are taxable or not,
but the interest on them probably is. In any case the bank where the
money resides needs a SSN and it is simplier (in the long run) for the
SSN associated with the account be the childs, rather than the
parent(s) -- saves having to mess with things once the kid turns 18
and/or should the parent(s) die somehow or something (various legal
issues which might tie up the account). Obviously this is not 'taxable
wages' ala W-2. Not sure how the interest income would be handled,
probably as part of the parents' taxes. Also, a SSN is needed for
things like SSI (as in disabity income), which would apply to children
with disabities.

Also a SSN is a de-facto unique national ID number, even though SSNs
are not supposed to be used for ID numbers (outside of the SS admin &
IRS), they are effectively being used that way. Since it is a unique
number issued by the federal government and can (mostly) be used as an
indicator of legal residence, many places use it as a first level
immigration/citizenship check (yes, it is possible for an illegal
immigrant to get a SSN, so having an SSN does not *in itself* imply
legal residence).

Oh, one of the ultimate tests for citizenship is a birth certificate
and if SSNs are issued with "freshly" issued birth certificates, then
SSNs become nearly as good a test for citizenship as a birth
certificate. I suspect the goal is to have a (nearly) one-to-one mapping
of SSNs to birth certificates, at least for natrally born US citizens,
with all other SSNs tied to natralized citizens and holders of 'Green
Cards' (legal resident aliens with work permits).

Yeah, shades of Big Brother and all that, (Yech).





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In article .com,
wrote:

On Jul 15, 5:57 pm, Merritt Mullen wrote:

Actually, that is a federal policy, and it does not just apply to Amtrak.

If I ride Amtrak California between San Jose and Stockton, ID
is required. If I ride ACE between those same two cities,
no ID is required. Two rail systems serving the same city
pairs - one does ID checks, the other doesn't.

You have to do the same thing for an airline ticket.

Actually, nobody knows for sure because DHS makes
up secret rules and regulations. However, I can tell you
based on personal experience that it is possible to fly
without ID, however, you will be subject to extra security
checks (because as we all know, terrorists don't
have valid forms of ID).

And the purpose of those "extra" checks is to identify you. I have a hard
time believing you actually flew without any identification at all. Maybe
you can clarify.

Anyway to avoid Constitutional issues, the TSA only requires the airline
to ask you to present an ID card. As to whether you can fly or not with
such a card, they leave that up to the airline.

Personally, I think it is Constitutionally less offensive to show an ID
card than have to go through a personal interrogation by federal security
personnel before traveling. That did happen to me once at Heathrow in
London prior to boarding a plane for the U.S. I was traveling with my
adult son, who happens to have exactly the same name as me. I was born in
New York, he was born in Japan. We both had U.S. passports. I suppose the
two identical names and the foreign birthplace of my son set off some kind
of alarm warranting the extra questioning.


Here is what it says on the Continental Airline website regarding ID
(other airlines have similar requirements):

-------------------------
Passengers 18 years of age or older are required to have one of the
following:

An official photo identification issued by a government authority.

OR

Two forms of identification, one of which must be issued by a
government authority.

Acceptable forms of ID include the following:

? Valid Driver's License
? Military ID
? Valid Passport
? Company ID card
? Credit card
? Social Security card
? Proof of auto insurance in passenger's name
? School ID card
? Library card
-------------------------

There are similar requirements for persons under 18 traveling alone.

Not really different than Amtrak.



Moreover, passengers must produce valid ID
("Papers Please!") any time they are asked to do
so while on the train.

Where does it say that?

The Amtrak web site (Passenger "Security" and Identification)

Yes, I see that now. It does not say that in the System Timetable.

I really don't see how that is any different than the airlines (and
probably intercity buses). Unlike the airlines, which check your ID
before you enter the airplane, and once you are on, basically hold you
prisoner (so normally no need to recheck your ID en route), Amtrak makes
multiple stops where people can freely get on and off the train. For that
reason, Amtrak may need to check your ID en route. Also, note that this
done to meet TSA "guidelines", not just something Amtrak made up.

In article ,
"Stephen Sprunk" wrote:

"Merritt Mullen" wrote in message
...

No, it does not mean that. The US does not have federally-issued ID.

Of course we do; it's called a passport. That 77% of Americans haven't
bothered to get one doesn't change that fact.

The fact that they cost about $90, are a hassle to obtain, must be renewed
every 10 years, are not required, and most people don't have any need for
one, is the reason for that 77%. And because of its size and value, it is
not a very practical day to day ID card.

My U.S. Navy ID works fine, however.

Merritt

In article . com,
wrote:

On Jul 16, 12:51 pm, Hatunen wrote:
Generally, when one talks of national ID cards one means
something all residents are required to have. It would be well if
everyone agreed on just what is being referred to.

The problem is that while there is no "official" national ID card we
are required by law to have, to effectively function in society we
must have a official state issued ID card (driver's license or
substitute). (Unless one spends their entire life living under a
bridge eating scrap food).

It wasn't that long ago that a person only had to get a social
security card when they grew up and started working. But now the govt
requires you get one at birth.

I don't understand why elementary schools require a kid's SSN to
register. Is the 5 year old kid gonna get taxable income at recess?
Actually, I don't undestand why colleges require it either.

Because there is no federal ID card, while at the same time, there is a
need for to prove one's identity, the SS account number gets used for that
purpose, although it specifically was supposed to NOT be used for ID.

The federal government needs to bite the bullet and recognize that to
function in today's society and economy, people need a recognized
government issued ID card. To force state driver's licenses to meet
federal ID requirements, or to use one's SS account number for ID, is a
cop-out on the part of the federal government.

Merritt

On 2007-07-16, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
Merritt Mullen wrote:
wrote:

ISTM that a problem is, despite having selected you
randomly, IME these people still treat you like a criminal
when they question you.

If they were taught to use their manners when they
first talked with people and only go into 'agressive'
mode when you give the wrong answers, people might
be more sympathetic about the job that they have to do.

Why do you think that is not the case? Have you had a bad experience?

Hasn't everyone had a bad experience with a Customs officer while
traveling at one point or another?

No, at least not for air travel. I've always found customs at Ft Lauderdale
and Chicago (ORD) to be quite courteous, sometimes downright chatty. Coming
back from the Caymans last month, one of the 2 (!) customs agents checking
my passport (and my wife's application for a renewed one) struck up a
conversation while the other was running the computer check; he asked if
my last name was German (it is, but the spelling is all wrong). It was a
short conversation (check takes all of 10 seconds), but pleasant.

My dad, on the other hand, once had his car practically stripped down upon
driving back from Ontario to Michigan, when I was but a whelp. That was nigh
on 30 years ago, though. I can only surmise he looked like a pothead or
something.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Robert Heller wrote:
At Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:59:37 -0700 wrote:

The problem is that while there is no "official" national ID card we
are required by law to have, to effectively function in society we
must have a official state issued ID card (driver's license or
substitute). (Unless one spends their entire life living under a
bridge eating scrap food).

Infants are now "acquiring" monetary assets, generally in the form of
things like college savings accounts (deposited by parents,
grandparents, etc.). I don't know if these assets are taxable or not,
but the interest on them probably is.

Under 1986 tax law reforms, the Social Security Number (or other IRS
issued taxpayer identification number if a foreign national didn't
qualify for an SSN) of the account owner of an interest-paid account had
to be on the account record. People were refusing to report interest
received on their tax returns, so this made it easier to catch
underreporting. Under the Patriot Act, banks are now required to
positively identify customers who open new accounts (even accounts that
pay no interest) including SSN. Yes, it's possible to set up a college
savings account whose interest is tax free.

In any case the bank where the money resides needs a SSN and it is simplier
(in the long run) for the SSN associated with the account be the childs,
rather than the parent(s) -- saves having to mess with things once the
kid turns 18 and/or should the parent(s) die somehow or something (various
legal issues which might tie up the account). Obviously this is not 'taxable
wages' ala W-2. Not sure how the interest income would be handled,
probably as part of the parents' taxes.

Aside from college savings accounts, parents attempt to reduce their own
tax liability by claiming some accounts belong to minors, which is why
children under 14 pay taxes at their parent's tax bracket. In truth, the
account doesn't actually belong to the child unless the child has actual
control of it, but parents sometimes tell accountants one thing and
practice another.

Also a SSN is a de-facto unique national ID number, even though SSNs
are not supposed to be used for ID numbers (outside of the SS admin &
IRS), they are effectively being used that way. Since it is a unique
number issued by the federal government and can (mostly) be used as an
indicator of legal residence, many places use it as a first level
immigration/citizenship check (yes, it is possible for an illegal
immigrant to get a SSN, so having an SSN does not *in itself* imply
legal residence).

Assuming the alien isn't committing document fraud, it's no longer
possible to get an SSN unless he holds a Green Card (lawful permanent
resident alien who may work). Previously, it was possible for any alien
to get an SSN to open a bank account, but that changed when IRS began
issuing taxpayer identification numbers directly to foreign nationals
ineligible for SSNs. Until a few years ago, aliens could obtain SSNs to
get driver's licenses, but that ended eventually. Aliens ineligible to
work used to be issued SSNs from a special series of numbers and had
Social Security cards that stated they were ineligible to work. If the
alien became a lawful permanent resident, he could no longer use the
special SSN and had to re-apply for a normal SSN.

When Social Security stopped issuing SSNs to resident aliens ineligible
to work, it took my state several years to change the law requiring an
applicant for a driver's license to have an SSN. So we had lots of
aliens driving without licenses during that period. Brilliant.

In article ews.net,
Adam H. Kerman wrote:

Curious how travel by train is such a heavy target. What did Amtrak ever
do to Customs?

I suspect it is a case of some customs agents liking to delay trains
just to throw their weight around. Possibly they have not much of a
life and get a charge out of causing misery.

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:45:50 GMT, Merritt Mullen
wrote:

Because there is no federal ID card, while at the same time, there is a
need for to prove one's identity, the SS account number gets used for that
purpose, although it specifically was supposed to NOT be used for ID.

Social Security cards are printed with lousy inks on simple heavy
paper stock and are amazingly easy to modify or copy. They make
****-poor ID cards.


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