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CyberFlying???



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 20th, 2011, 11:06 PM posted to rec.travel.air
mag3
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Posts: 51
Default CyberFlying???

Hello all. Long time since I've been on RTA. Mostly since I don't really fly anymore.
Different priorities in life now.

So I've been doing the next best thing. :-) I cannot believe the amount of video footage
I've found recently on YouTube of aircraft take offs/landings, engine starts etc. and
especially from *inside* the aircraft. I mean, this is some really good stuff... HD720p
footage usually from BC, pointed right out a window just forward of the engine with
excellent sound, quite like I remember it.

I guess my question is, how is it even possible to acquire such footage from inside the
aircraft given the prohibition on "portable electronic devices" below 10,000ft? Perhaps,
it may have been "overlooked" in the earlier days of "heightened security awareness,"
but I'm really wondering how anyone could get away with it today? Even if permission
were to be granted by the captain or crew, the passengers wouldn't necessarily know
that and might raise a ruckus on their own... leaving the crew to clean up.

"Unofficially," I thank those who take such good footage, as it's all the flying I do these
days (Cyberflying), but I just wonder how it's even possible...


____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
  #2  
Old October 21st, 2011, 05:41 AM posted to rec.travel.air
DevilsPGD[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default CyberFlying???

In message someone claiming
to be mag3 typed:

I guess my question is, how is it even possible to acquire such footage from inside the
aircraft given the prohibition on "portable electronic devices" below 10,000ft? Perhaps,
it may have been "overlooked" in the earlier days of "heightened security awareness,"
but I'm really wondering how anyone could get away with it today? Even if permission
were to be granted by the captain or crew, the passengers wouldn't necessarily know
that and might raise a ruckus on their own... leaving the crew to clean up.


The short answer is that electronics aren't a threat and everyone knows
it. Nobody cares if you use a phone or similar on the ground, on the
runway, during takeoff/landing or anywhere else.

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.
  #3  
Old October 21st, 2011, 02:30 PM posted to rec.travel.air
Fly Guy
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Posts: 193
Default Using electronic devices during take-off and landing (was:CyberFlying???)

I changed the subject to something more descriptive and intelligent.

The original choice of subject (Cyberflying ??) denotes or implies some
sort of automated, robotic aircraft control mechanism or remote
telematic operation of an aircraft, which clearly is not the intent of
this thread.

mag3 wrote:

I cannot believe the amount of video footage I've found recently
on YouTube of aircraft take offs/landings, engine starts etc. and
especially from *inside* the aircraft.
pointed right out a window just forward of the engine with
excellent sound, quite like I remember it.

I guess my question is, how is it even possible to acquire such
footage from inside the aircraft given the prohibition on
"portable electronic devices" below 10,000ft?


It's pretty easy.

I've done it several times with my point-and-shoot camera, and my GPS.

Consider what happens on a plane just prior to takeoff and landing -
especially what the flight attendants are doing. They're walking up and
down the ailes, doing that stupid check for seat-backs and tray tables
are up, your seat belts are on, your junk is stuffed under the seat in
front, you're not wearing headphones or ear plugs, you've got nothing on
your lap besides paper reading material, and any visible electronics is
turned off if not stowed somewhere.

After they do all that crap, they sit down and strap themselves in, and
they really can't see what's going on in most of the seats on the
plane. That's when you can reline your seat, put your ear-buds or head
phones back in, and take out your camera. They can't see your camera
unless you hold it up above the seat-back in front of you - something
you don't need to do if you're just shooting out the window at the wing,
engine, ground passing below, etc.

Because I frequently have my hand-held GPS (Garmin Geko) turned on
during various stages of the flight, and because it needs some time to
get a position lock, I will hold it up against the window but shield it
from view with a newspaper so the FA's can't see it during their walks.
That way I can get a good GPS position recording of the take-off and
landing (exact coordinates, speed and altitude).
  #4  
Old October 21st, 2011, 05:44 PM posted to rec.travel.air
mag3
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 51
Default CyberFlying???

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 09:30:09 -0400, Fly Guy wrote:

I changed the subject to something more descriptive and intelligent.

The original choice of subject (Cyberflying ??) denotes or implies some
sort of automated, robotic aircraft control mechanism or remote
telematic operation of an aircraft, which clearly is not the intent of
this thread.


Ah, good to be home again... letting the insults fling away!!! The thread
title has to do with what the videos allow people to do - "Cyberfly" - That
is, watch an aircraft in flight, taxi, etc. from the point of view of a passenger,
from the comfort of their computer screen. The point being, aside from getting
you from point "A" to "B," airline travel allows you to see the terrain from a
different perspective (ie. at 30,000ft or whatever), as opposed to being on the
ground all the time and not seeing the whole picture at once. It's nice to do
that at least once and a while. Now, I get to do it from my desk and without
having to shell out $$$ for the privilege.

And I've changed the title back!


It's pretty easy.

I've done it several times with my point-and-shoot camera, and my GPS.


[SNIP]

After they do all that crap, they sit down and strap themselves in, and
they really can't see what's going on in most of the seats on the
plane. That's when you can reline your seat, put your ear-buds or head
phones back in, and take out your camera. They can't see your camera
unless you hold it up above the seat-back in front of you


But the other passengers *can* see it, and one of them might get nosy
and take initiative (i.e. "Let's Roll!"). How do they know if you got permission from the
crew? How do they know the device you're holding is not an IED or something pointed
at the engine to make it fail after take off? And if *they* have to turn everything off for
take off/landing, why shouldn't you???

Besides, many of these videos include pushback and engine starting, when
the FAs are *not* strapped in and are still checking the aisles.

____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
  #5  
Old October 21st, 2011, 09:19 PM posted to rec.travel.air
DevilsPGD[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default CyberFlying???

In message someone claiming
to be mag3 typed:

But the other passengers *can* see it, and one of them might get nosy
and take initiative (i.e. "Let's Roll!"). How do they know if you got permission from the
crew? How do they know the device you're holding is not an IED or something pointed
at the engine to make it fail after take off? And if *they* have to turn everything off for
take off/landing, why shouldn't you???


Who says they did? They're probably busy watching for the flight
attendants themselves, so they don't get busted using their BlackBerry.

At least that's my experience when I travel, but I've only flown 14,000
miles this month, your mileage may vary.

Besides, many of these videos include pushback and engine starting, when
the FAs are *not* strapped in and are still checking the aisles.


That should give you an idea of how much the flight attendants care, no?

It's not that difficult, especially if you care to not get caught. You
won't pull it off on every flight, but out of the last 6 I flew, only
once did anyone notice I had headphones on; ironically it was a flight
where you're allowed to wear headphones at all times, as long as they're
plugged into their system. I wasn't, but I motioned toward the armrest
and she nodded and moved on.

In my experience, if flight attendants know you're an experienced
traveler, they'll tend to harass you less over the little things.

Electronics aren't a security or safety issue and everyone knows it.
Nobody cares, for degrees of nobody that include the majority of
passengers.

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.
  #6  
Old October 21st, 2011, 10:22 PM posted to rec.travel.air
Tom P[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 563
Default CyberFlying???

On 10/21/2011 06:41 AM, DevilsPGD wrote:
In someone claiming
to be typed:

I guess my question is, how is it even possible to acquire such footage from inside the
aircraft given the prohibition on "portable electronic devices" below 10,000ft? Perhaps,
it may have been "overlooked" in the earlier days of "heightened security awareness,"
but I'm really wondering how anyone could get away with it today? Even if permission
were to be granted by the captain or crew, the passengers wouldn't necessarily know
that and might raise a ruckus on their own... leaving the crew to clean up.


The short answer is that electronics aren't a threat and everyone knows
it. Nobody cares if you use a phone or similar on the ground, on the
runway, during takeoff/landing or anywhere else.


Cell phones do generate a lot of electronic RFC noise, so I can
understand why they are not allowed. What annoys me is being forbidden
to turn on a GPS receiver in flight. This is a totally passive
electronic device.
AFA not being a threat, the question is, are devices certified as not
being a threat? As long as there is no certification, that's the end of
the story.

  #7  
Old October 21st, 2011, 11:13 PM posted to rec.travel.air
mag3
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 51
Default CyberFlying???

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:19:25 -0700, DevilsPGD wrote:

In message someone claiming
to be mag3 typed:

But the other passengers *can* see it, and one of them might get nosy
and take initiative (i.e. "Let's Roll!"). How do they know if you got permission from the
crew? How do they know the device you're holding is not an IED or something pointed
at the engine to make it fail after take off? And if *they* have to turn everything off for
take off/landing, why shouldn't you???


Who says they did? They're probably busy watching for the flight
attendants themselves, so they don't get busted using their BlackBerry.


I'm not saying anyone did, but given what I've read recently in people being
thrown off of flights for far less severe infractions, and what with newfound "IED
awareness," it would seem something both crew and pax. would take a lot more
seriously. They did when I was flying. I thought things were actually getting
*more* strict. You're telling me no, and since you've obviously flown more than
me, lately, I'll take your word for it. But I am a little disappointed, both from a
security standpoint, and also, one of "fairness." As silly as the regulation may be
(and I agree it is), it's still a reg, and must be obeyed by all. And they're are more
reasons than just "security."

General Safety, for one... Not that cameras/camcorders would be a huge deal, but
other devices and gear (ie. laptops etc.), should not be allowed below 10,00ft, in
order to maintain emergency egress for all and the paths clear (at a time when the
probability for an emergency egress is greatest). I wouldn't be real happy if someone
is futzing around with their laptop (or other devices) and blocking my exit when the
"evacuate" order is given. After all, isn't that why all that carry on stuff "must fit
completely underneath the seat in front of you or in the overhead bins," and "All
tray tables locked and seat backs returned to their full/upright position?"

Maybe crews are more "educated" about electronics now. But I guess I thought that
pax. would not know the difference and would want to stop even a "perceived" threat for
security reasons, or at least bitch about someone else getting away with a reg violation.


Besides, many of these videos include pushback and engine starting, when
the FAs are *not* strapped in and are still checking the aisles.


That should give you an idea of how much the flight attendants care, no?


Sadly, yes.
____________________________________________
Regards,

Arnold
  #8  
Old October 22nd, 2011, 12:59 AM posted to rec.travel.air
DevilsPGD[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default CyberFlying???

In message someone claiming
to be mag3 typed:

On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:19:25 -0700, DevilsPGD wrote:

I'm not saying anyone did, but given what I've read recently in people being
thrown off of flights for far less severe infractions, and what with newfound "IED
awareness," it would seem something both crew and pax. would take a lot more
seriously. They did when I was flying. I thought things were actually getting
*more* strict. You're telling me no, and since you've obviously flown more than
me, lately, I'll take your word for it. But I am a little disappointed, both from a
security standpoint, and also, one of "fairness." As silly as the regulation may be
(and I agree it is), it's still a reg, and must be obeyed by all. And they're are more
reasons than just "security."


You don't need to obey regulations, just the flight attendants. If
you're personally told to do something, do it. If not, don't be a moron
and you'll be fine.

Sure, you might get the odd passenger who freaks out, but you're just as
likely to have them hiding their own phone under their jacket too.

General Safety, for one... Not that cameras/camcorders would be a huge deal, but
other devices and gear (ie. laptops etc.), should not be allowed below 10,00ft, in
order to maintain emergency egress for all and the paths clear (at a time when the
probability for an emergency egress is greatest).


Indeed. This is exactly why I don't care about my phone, or other
handheld devices. Should we need to check out quickly, I can buy a new
iPhone should I happen to survive.

Okay, or I might keep it in my pocket and become "that asshole" but only
if it fits in my pocket. Laptop? Forget it, can be replaced... But the
phone might become useful 2 minutes after getting out of the plane.

I wouldn't be real happy if someone
is futzing around with their laptop (or other devices) and blocking my exit when the
"evacuate" order is given. After all, isn't that why all that carry on stuff "must fit
completely underneath the seat in front of you or in the overhead bins," and "All
tray tables locked and seat backs returned to their full/upright position?"


Agreed. If they want to solve this they'll ban books, paper and all the
other crap that people have on their laps -- Focus the attention on what
matters, which is keeping walkways clear and attention focused.

Either that or just realize that the number of crashes/etc where time
matters is so tiny it basically doesn't matter. Either you die or not.

Maybe crews are more "educated" about electronics now. But I guess I thought that
pax. would not know the difference and would want to stop even a "perceived" threat for
security reasons, or at least bitch about someone else getting away with a reg violation.


I suspect most regular travelers have accidentally left their phone on,
seen someone else leave their phone on, heard a stowed phone ring, etc
and noticed the plane didn't fall out of the sky.

Next they noticed that water and other harmless items are being
confiscated while electronics are given a pass at airport security.

We know liquids aren't a threat because we know what happens when you
take a real threat (gun, knife, etc) through security: You're arrested.
When you take a banned non-threat through (liquid, lotion, etc) they
simply toss it in the garbage and send you on your way. That's theatre,
when the cost for getting caught is zero you can simply try over and
over and over until you get whatever you need through.

If electronics were even a theoretical threat like liquids are, they'd
be banned.

(and the joke of it is that lithium ion batteries can be rigged to
explode, it's just not particularly reliable. But it's arguably easier
to rig up than liquids)

Besides, many of these videos include pushback and engine starting, when
the FAs are *not* strapped in and are still checking the aisles.


That should give you an idea of how much the flight attendants care, no?


Sadly, yes.


Why sadly? They have real issues to worry about, non-safety related
rules aren't worth their effort at this point in the flight.

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.
  #9  
Old October 22nd, 2011, 12:59 AM posted to rec.travel.air
DevilsPGD[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 79
Default CyberFlying???

In message someone claiming to be Tom
P typed:

On 10/21/2011 06:41 AM, DevilsPGD wrote:
In someone claiming
to be typed:

I guess my question is, how is it even possible to acquire such footage from inside the
aircraft given the prohibition on "portable electronic devices" below 10,000ft? Perhaps,
it may have been "overlooked" in the earlier days of "heightened security awareness,"
but I'm really wondering how anyone could get away with it today? Even if permission
were to be granted by the captain or crew, the passengers wouldn't necessarily know
that and might raise a ruckus on their own... leaving the crew to clean up.


The short answer is that electronics aren't a threat and everyone knows
it. Nobody cares if you use a phone or similar on the ground, on the
runway, during takeoff/landing or anywhere else.


Cell phones do generate a lot of electronic RFC noise, so I can
understand why they are not allowed. What annoys me is being forbidden
to turn on a GPS receiver in flight. This is a totally passive
electronic device.
AFA not being a threat, the question is, are devices certified as not
being a threat? As long as there is no certification, that's the end of
the story.


Then why are you allowed to use many electronic devices during the
flight, including those that transmit and receive (on some flights)? Do
all onboard electronics suddenly become certified?

If there was even a chance cell phones, laptops, cameras, etc could
cause operational or safety issues with the flight, do you think they'd
focus on finding water and hand lotion or dangerous electronics?

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.
  #10  
Old October 22nd, 2011, 01:19 AM posted to rec.travel.air
Fly Guy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Using electronic devices during take-off and landing (was:CyberFlying???)

mag3 wrote:

I changed the subject to something more descriptive and intelligent.


The thread title has to do with what the videos allow people to do
- "Cyberfly" -


There is no such concept as "cyberfly".

That is, watch an aircraft in flight, taxi, etc.


What the hell kind of terminology are you trying to invent?

Documenting or filming various human activities with cameras is not
called "cyber-this" or "cyber-that".

So stop it already with the cyber-bull****.

You are focused here in this thread on the use of electronic devices
during take-off and landing, so that's the correct subject line for this
thread.

It's pretty easy.

I've done it several times with my point-and-shoot camera, and
my GPS.


But the other passengers *can* see it, and one of them might get
nosy and take initiative (i.e. "Let's Roll!").


Other passenger's don't give a rat's ass what you're doing.

How do they know if you got permission from the crew?


If they even notice that I'm doing something with an electronic device,
I can garantee you that they know that there is no such permission. So
that question is moot.

How do they know the device you're holding is not an IED


You could ask the same question about the book or the big-mac sandwich
that I might be holding while seated on the plane.

If I had an IED, I wouldn't have to hold it or operate it like it was a
real phone, a camera or GPS. I'd just reach down into my pocket and
push the IED detonate button.

or something pointed at the engine to make it fail after take off?


Are you serious?

About the only thing I could be holding while seated on the plane that
would make an engine fail is a bazooka, or maybe some big-ass caliber
hand-gun.

And if *they* have to turn everything off for take off/landing
why shouldn't you???


Again, it's never an issue.

I guess you're too chicken to have ever tried.

Besides, many of these videos include pushback and engine starting,
when the FAs are *not* strapped in and are still checking the aisles.


It's easy to hide a camera behind a newspaper or magazine while it's
shooting out the window.

And if they have to put the camera down for a second while a FA passes
by, how do you know that that part isin't edited out of the videos that
you see?
 




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