(talesofasia) Thailand to Cambodia bus ticket scam

When a bus ticket is not a bus ticket
By Gordon Sharpless
November 4. 2004
www.talesofasia.com

For about four years now it's been possible to buy a bus ticket from a
travel agency on Bangkok's Khao San Road offering transport all the
way to Siem Reap. Originally it was nothing more than a few delays, a
long visit at a restaurant in Sisophon, and a few minor guesthouse
dances. Then the companies entered into a price war, resulting in
ticket prices plummeting to as low as a ridiculous 80 baht (about $2
US dollars) for the 450-kilometer journey. To make up for the loss
generated by such a nonsensical price, the operators began cooking up
a wide variety of scams: overcharging for visas, more restaurant
stops, upping the bounty on the heads of the tourists sold to
guesthouses, etc and the service became known as the "Scam Ticket".
Then in the beginning of 2004, the police in Poipet decided they
wanted their cut and the bus ticket prices were pushed back up to the
300 to 600-baht range ($7.50 - $15.00). And with the higher prices we
have not seen an improvement in service, but here today, in November
2004, we are now seeing a service that has more scams, more hassles,
and more unhappy customers than anytime in the past.

I received the following letter this past month:


We travelled on the 7th October. We bought our tickets from an agent
just off the Khaosan Road who assured us we would go via Poipet -
luxury coach/air con minibus.

We were taken to a border crossing that our guest house owner thinks
must be a new one just opened - we have the word DAUNG as place of
entry stamped on our visa. [Gordon he I can confirm that this is
the border crossing near Pailin, considerably south of Poipet and most
certainly not a direct route to Siem Reap.]

There are two things to beware of - first the very helpful man who
meets you TELLS you to give him your passport and a photo for your
visa - he is with one of the immigration officials as you go into the
Cambodian side so it all looks official - he doesn't offer assistance
with the visa, or explain that there will be a charge. We didn't fall
for this one, having already read very helpful advice on your site. We
said we would do our own visas, and we did - this made us very
unpopular with him from then on.

The visa cost us 1200 baht, not negotiable with the guys preparing the
visas, they just shut the window and refused to open it until the
could see the 2500 baht being waved at them.

We were then escorted (herded) down the road - very dismal dirty place
- to an office belonging to a company called Khaosan Travel
Connections. Here all the people who had let him do their visa were
charged between 1300 - 1700 baht per person for the visa and his
service. There was no minibus - a pickup was waiting. He told us that
the road was too bad for a minibus to get through - this part at least
was true.

The first 15 people were put onto that pickup, which at least had a
bench seat in it. They set off. The rest of us - the bad girls and
boys who either had their visa before they arrived or sorted
themselves out - we had to wait a further one and half hours before
our pick up turned up - it was 3.30 by the time we set off. The pick
up had 6 plus driver inside the cab and nine of us plus all the bags
in the back. We had to sit up on the edge of the back and hold on for
dear life as the truck jolted along a very poor and sometimes
incredible muddy track.

We arrived in Siem Reap at 11.30 at night, to be taken to the usual
"we will take you to a guest house we recommend to save you the hassle
of finding one so late at night". We had already booked ours so we
just got in a tuk-tuk and went away.

The main thing is that having tried to assure ourselves we were going
via Poipet, we didn't and the journey in the pick-up is agony.

It seems that there are buses leaving from the Khaosan Road area at 7
am and 7.30 am - we went on the 7 am bus and some people we met later
who were on the 7.30 bus did go via Poipet. This might be a red
herring but someone might like to test it and let the rest of us know.

My friend and I were advised to go to the tourist police by the owner
of the guesthouse where we are staying. We did this two days ago and
they treated our complaint very seriously. Not only did they take a
statement for their own use but a separate one for the "corruption
police" too.

Apparently the people behind Khaosan Connection Travel are well known
to the police as they have been scamming and moving on for a number of
years.

Some more people staying at our guesthouse also came down the same
way. They also reported the problem to the tourist police.

Last night we were all invited to headquarters where we were each
presented with 200 baht in compensation and assured that Khaosan
Connection Travel had been told to stop ripping tourists off. While I
think this was largely a PR exercise on the part of the Tourist
Police, it does show that they are concerned about people who come to
their country.

I would urge everyone who gets taken to this border and ripped off by
Khaosan Connection Travel to go to the Siem Reap Tourist Police. If
they continue to receive these reports, they will realise how much it
is happening. I know some people are on a tight schedule of temple
cramming when they come to Siem Reap, but if you can spare an hour to
report your problems, it will help other fellow travellers. They are
particularly keen to know about pressure put on people by local guest
house owners when arriving in town.
---

So what are we to make of this? Do we chastise the backpackers who are
so naive or at least uninformed as to purchase a bus ticket on Khao
San Road? Do we rant and rave about the incompetence of Cambodian
businesses and how their selfishness is damaging the nation's tourism
industry as a whole? Do we lay blame on the Bangkok travel agencies
selling the tickets? Do we go after the Cambodian government for
allowing these shenanigans to continue?

Conversely, do we throw up our hands and say "well, that's how things
are, take it or leave it"?
Some thoughts on the matter:


1.) Chastise the backpackers who are so naive or at least uninformed
as to purchase a bus ticket on Khao San Road.

For those who live on either side of the border or who have a
reasonable amount of travel experience in the region, it's pretty much
a given that under no circumstances do you ever purchase bus tickets
to ANY destination from a travel agent on Khao San Road. However, a
less experienced traveler, err can I say tourist?, is all too easily
enticed by agent after agent selling bus tickets to anyplace you'd
want to go, mostly domestic, but to Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos, and even
Singapore as well. And with so many staying on or around Khao San
Road, you have to concede that the purchasing is convenient, even if
the subsequent transportation is not, but few know that at this point.
What they do know is buying the ticket is easy and cheap and rarely
does the purchaser of said ticket ever wonder why it is so cheap or
what it is the Thais do for transport because you certainly don't see
them buying bus tickets anywhere on Khao San Road.

Having been writing this site for four years and conversing with
travelers in the region for seven it's become well obvious how little
research and preparation some do prior to traveling. Once on a Koh
Kong to Phnom Penh van I was chatting with some tourists about
Cambodia, "What's there to see in Cambodia?" they asked.
"Well, obviously you'll start with Angkor Wat."
"Angkor Wat. What's that?" was their answer.
Needless to say there wasn't much else they knew about the country
they were already traveling in. And if I were so inclined to fill
their heads with stories of Khmer Rouge kidnappings, armed robberies,
extortion rackets, etc they'd probably have believed me. And if I
owned a guesthouse, well actually I do, I could probably have told
them the same crap thereby almost guaranteeing that they stay in every
night and eat all my food and drink all my beer. Sad reality is there
are guesthouses dishing out this garbage and tourists readily
believing it.

Yes, there once was a time when one could set off to Asia without the
benefit of a guidebook, the internet, or much of anything but a map, a
little history, and some knowledge of what a few of the popular
tourist attractions might be along the way. But that was before the
advent of mass tourism. Backpacking, or in the sense of the
romanticism surrounding it that has evolved over the years, is by and
large a myth. A tourist is a tourist whether you're staying in dollar
a night dorms or thousand dollar a night luxury suites. And with
tourism so well developed in this region, traveling without benefit of
advance research via guidebooks, the internet, etc is foolish. Thirty
years ago you were less likely to be scammed because few took the time
to cook up scams because there were so few available marks. Now, with
a million visitors a year to Cambodia, twelve, thirteen times that to
Thailand, there are plenty of opportunities to rip people off and not
surprisingly people come out of the woodwork and get to it.

I'd always hoped that over time continued publicity of the problems
with purchasing bus tickets on Khao San Road would lead to a
reduction, if not (in times of gross optimism) elimination, of these
services, but that hasn't been the case. Whether it's a backpacker van
to Chiang Mai, a "VIP" bus to Surat Thani, or the scam bus to Siem
Reap, these privately run services continue to flourish and continue
to provide headaches and worse for the people who use them.

Moral of the story: Do your homework. Ultimately you are responsible
for yourself. In too many instances, those who get ripped-off were
done in because of their own tacit approval. Information on a myriad
of pitfalls is out there for anyone who cares to look.


2.) The incompetence and selfishness of Cambodian businesses is
damaging the nation's tourism industry as a whole.

Well, sort of. Kind of a loaded question, really. Damaging? Yes, to a
point. But sweeping indictments of Cambodian business practices are
neither accurate nor productive. I've encountered plenty of honest
Khmer business owners in Siem Reap who have no more affection for
these clowns then the rest of us.
"They disgust me."
"They give my country a bad name."
"I am Cambodian, I have to deal with these people. But I don't like
it."
"Someday we will improve."

The folks running these bus operations approach guesthouse owners with
the ever so generous offer that they will bring in the cattle and for
every head they drop off, whether the customer stays or not, the
guesthouse pays $7 (it used to be $6). And they ensure payment because
the guesthouse puts up a $1000 deposit and the balance is worked off
through delivery of the cargo. I know a Khmer guesthouse owner who got
himself trapped into this mess. He rues the day he ever forked over
the deposit. "They come late at night, half the people leave, they say
to me, 'why you do this, try to make us stay like this. Why can't you
just let us go where we want?' It gives my guesthouse a bad name. I
not happy." He won't be paying another thousand dollar deposit.

It was once worse. In the earlier days of this marketing program we
heard stories of guesthouses locking the gates and not letting people
leave. Then some disgruntled tourists made a point of visiting the
police the following morning and a guesthouse was fined $2000 and
threatened with closure if it ever happened again.

Other than selling the tickets and providing transport to the border,
the Khao San Road to Siem Reap tourist bus is a Cambodian operation.
And while it should not be seen as indicative of Cambodia business as
a whole, I would agree that it doesn't do the country any favors
because it's part and parcel to a visitor's first impression of
Cambodia, which in this case is to be hassled and ripped-off. Welcome
to Cambodia, please bend over.

I'm of the opinion that no matter how bad the border and bus scams
are, if someone is intent on coming to Cambodia, they will come
regardless of the situation. But, and this is a big but, what people
too often forget is that there are an awful lot of people straddling
the fence as to whether they want to visit Cambodia or not.

Scenario: Tourist visits Siem Reap, has a great time at Angkor despite
being totally ripped-off on the bus ticket, returns to Khao San Road
and hangs out at a cafe with a couple of other tourists who have not
been to Cambodia.
"Oh," one tourist says, "we have a week left on our holiday but
haven't made up our minds. A week in Cambodia or a trip to the
southern islands."
So the tourist fresh back from Siem Reap tells them yeah, Angkor Wat
was cool but the border and the bus ticket were a nightmare (and
probably not realizing that the Khao San Road bus ticket is most
certainly not the only way to Siem Reap by land). Details of the trip
are offered over a beer and the other couple looks at each other and,
"the southern islands it is" and they're off to Samui. This happens a
lot.


3.) Do we lay blame on the Bangkok travel agencies selling the
tickets?

The awareness and degree of participation on the part of the agents in
Bangkok varies from agency to agency. Many have some idea that the
tickets are basically nonsense as they've heard the complaints and the
questions from potential buyers, "so is this scam ticket I've heard
about?" and I've found from conversations that some, if pressed, will
concede that the service is garbage, but sell the tickets anyway, "If
we don't someone else will." Others will gladly play dumb. More often
the case is along the lines of, "what do I care, this is to Cambodia."

Still, there are others who are certainly more than willing
participants, as once when I was polling agents for prices, a couple
of them quoted a higher price for Thais! There's an unusual twist! And
also another warning flag as to why no one should buy these tickets...
hmm... they're trying to keep Thais off the bus. Why is that?

There was a time, however, when the complaints first started rolling
in, that several KSR agents did stop selling the tickets and though
it's been some time since I last polled agents there, I do recall that
some would not sell the tickets because the hassles involved weren't
worth the meager commissions.


4.) Do we go after the Cambodian government for allowing these
shenanigans to continue?

Well, governments around the world are always fair game, but recent
interviews with the new Minister of Tourism (see website) indicate
that at the very least there is lip service to this problem. And as
the above letter indicates and that one guesthouse in Siem Reap was
nailed with a $2000 fine for locking in guests, it would seem that the
government is not amused by these actions and how they affect
Cambodia's image. Whether they can or are even willing to take further
steps to do something about it remains to be seen.


5.) Do we throw up our hands and say "well, that's how things are,
take it or leave it"?

Ah, the apologist. Certainly a good coping mechanism for the apparent
insanity of living here but not very productive to initiating change.
It's a tough call, where you draw the line between accepting the
status quo or trying to promote change. Move too far to acceptance of
things and run the risk of becoming too complacent, spend too much
time trying to change things and become frustrated and exhausted.

Meanwhile, tourists will continue en masse scooping up dodgy bus
tickets on Khao San Road and complaining about it later. Given the
prices some of these tickets are sold for there's not a whole lot of
justification for some of the grumbling. Here, there, or anywhere, you
get what you pay for, but what the reader describes above is pure
unadulterated nonsense.
---
Source: http://www.talesofasia.com

It's not so much about scams. The main problem is that operators in Khao
San road don't charge a reasonable price for such a long trip (and they
don't charge reasonable prices because backpackers expect to pay nothing
or close to nothing - see below).

We payed not 80 Baht, but 200 in the year 2000 in Khaosan road and even
that doesn't cover the cost of a 13 hours 450 km trip.

We also payed an additional 200 Baht each at the border for the
privilege to sit inside the cabin of the pickup truck on the Cambodian
side. This saved us about eight gruelling hours on the back of a pickup
truck sitting on the backpacks under the strong sun (first) and under
heavy rain (later).

At the border we insisted to go personally to the visa counter (can't
remember exactly, but I think I payed 800 Baht vs. the 1000-1200 the
others payed - my wife is Malaysian and she didn't need a visa).

On the way back the price of the ticket was 600 Baht. Higher, because
the travel operator wasn't getting a commission from a guesthouse to
cover his expense.

A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or
other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for
everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below
economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the
service also have to make a living.
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria,
Prague, Budapest and Portugal

"On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:39 +0100, Alfred Molon
wrote:
A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or
other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for
everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below
economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the
service also have to make a living.

this attitude is most prevalent amongst the children of former colonials
viz british, dutch, spanish, and american.
i find the germans quite ok in that they pay the labelled rate and move in
herds: safety in number ;-))

the worst is the british, arrogant, demanding and despicable.

one british law gradute working at he un told me, she only pays when asked
!!
what a bitch.

further when they congregate together, they regale the "stupidity" of the
locals in their (the local) behaviours.

nevetheless, the backpackers are prodigious travellers, know short cuts and
very street smart.





---------------
cheers
pluto

"pluto" wrote in message
...
"On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:39 +0100, Alfred Molon
wrote:
A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or
other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for
everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below
economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the
service also have to make a living.

this attitude is most prevalent amongst the children of former colonials
viz british, dutch, spanish, and american.
i find the germans quite ok in that they pay the labelled rate and move in
herds: safety in number ;-))

the worst is the british, arrogant, demanding and despicable.

one british law gradute working at he un told me, she only pays when asked
!!
what a bitch.

further when they congregate together, they regale the "stupidity" of the
locals in their (the local) behaviours.

nevetheless, the backpackers are prodigious travellers, know short cuts
and
very street smart.

---------------
cheers
pluto

Pluto,
You forgot the French among the former colonial powers.
It affected my pride :-)
Cheers
Daniel

"On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:46:08 +0700, "Daniel"
wrote:
"
Pluto,
[it is pluto ;-((((((((((((((((( ]
You forgot the French among the former colonial powers.
It affected my pride :-)
Cheers
Daniel

oooooooops! profound apologies.
fortunately i had the greatest of pleasures travelling with the french
backpackers.
their language which i cannot speak is sooooooooooooo sexy ;-)))
and the french girls are BEAUTIFUL and, unlike the british fat assed, dont
have body odours ;-))

[footnote: the"fat ass" is due to the money belt hidden in thier waists
above their panties for security against being robbed not of their
virginity, but of their "paltry valuables" :-)))) ]



---------------
cheers
pluto

"pluto" (sadly) quite correctly mentioned...


this attitude is most prevalent amongst the children of former colonials
viz british, dutch, spanish, and american.
i find the germans quite ok in that they pay the labelled rate and move in
herds: safety in number ;-))

the worst is the british, arrogant, demanding and despicable.


Thankfully, we aren't _all _ like that.
But then, I'm not visiting Thailand to drink, get laid and lie on a beach.

My Thai friends throw up their hands when I go shopping, telling me that I
could get a much better price. But I recognise that to save what is a small
amount by my standards, I am reducing the income of someone by what could be
a significant amount to them. Why quibble over 10 or 20 Baht when I already
have a bargain . . .
And I'm not totally free-spending. I buy when I have a reason to, and when
I can see that the price is not unreasonable.

But, then again, I might be British, but there's no English blood in my
ancestry (Irish and Scot only) - perhaps that is the differentiating factor.

_______
Geoff B

eeeehh - 5 weeks and I'll be back in a little country school in the hills
8¬ )

"Alfred Molon" wrote in message
...
It's not so much about scams. The main problem is that operators in Khao
San road don't charge a reasonable price for such a long trip (and they
don't charge reasonable prices because backpackers expect to pay nothing
or close to nothing - see below).

Sometimes it does however work out well.
I paid 100 baht from KSR in 2002, minibus to Aranya Prathet, had a visa in
advance, didn`t pay anything at the border and a small bus picked us up on
the other side of the border and took us the rest of the way to Siam Riap.
Couldn`t have been any smoother than that considering the condition of the
road in Cambo. No extra fees anywhere.
We got off in front of a nice GH where we were expected to stay although no
pressure was being applied. 4 dollars for a room in a new place.
No complaints from me nor from the rest of the passengers whatsoever.

Cheers
Michael Christoffersen

"pluto" wrote in message
...
"On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:46:08 +0700, "Daniel"
wrote:
"
Pluto,
[it is pluto ;-((((((((((((((((( ]
You forgot the French among the former colonial powers.
It affected my pride :-)
Cheers
Daniel

oooooooops! profound apologies.
fortunately i had the greatest of pleasures travelling with the french
backpackers.
their language which i cannot speak is sooooooooooooo sexy ;-)))
and the french girls are BEAUTIFUL and, unlike the british fat assed, dont
have body odours ;-))

[footnote: the"fat ass" is due to the money belt hidden in thier waists
above their panties for security against being robbed not of their
virginity, but of their "paltry valuables" :-)))) ]

Thanks for your kind comments.
But be careful, whatever beautiful and nice smell the French girls have,
they are nowadays going strongly into the "kill the machos" exercise that
already affected deeply the USA.
Well, women's Lib is maybe a right cause, but the extremist, integrist,
radical way it has been applied literally quick me out of France, out of the
West. I am a member of the lost generation...
Our language is maybe very sexy to non-French ears but unfortunately not all
the French women remember what it means :-(((
Oh, by the way, I wrote "extremist, integrist, radical".
Remind me something we talk a lot about here around.
Forgot what, getting old :-)
Cheers
Daniel

"On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 12:28:10 +0000 (UTC), "New Geoff" m.gjb SPHERICAL
wrote:
"

"pluto" (sadly) quite correctly mentioned...


this attitude is most prevalent amongst the children of former colonials
viz british, dutch, spanish, and american.
i find the germans quite ok in that they pay the labelled rate and move in
herds: safety in number ;-))

the worst is the british, arrogant, demanding and despicable.


Thankfully, we aren't _all _ like that.
But then, I'm not visiting Thailand to drink, get laid and lie on a beach.

hmm, i was responding to Daniel vide backpackers, not sex tourist or
relax-holiday tourists.
so khun "New Geoff" is not in this "tirade" ;-)))


My Thai friends throw up their hands when I go shopping, telling me that I
could get a much better price. But I recognise that to save what is a small
amount by my standards, I am reducing the income of someone by what could be
a significant amount to them. Why quibble over 10 or 20 Baht when I already
have a bargain . . .

that is very generous of you "New Geoff", but beware backpackers will be
"cursing" you for "jacking up the price". ---just kidding.
local thai hawkers are not stupid.
they spot a newbie kilometres away.
Have you been to Khaosan road, "New Geoff"?
see how the backpackers bargain '-) ---it is an art form !!!!
notice which bar has the most customers? that one gives the best deal.
see which stall has the most customers? she give best for the price paid.
i once could not believed my eye: an issan girl pleating THREE farang
heads!!
how do you do that? i asked in amazement.
oh, easy, my chaigmai stinggy boss made me weave thai silk cloth using
three looms !!!!!!! pleating away without missing a step. 5555555555

And I'm not totally free-spending. I buy when I have a reason to, and when
I can see that the price is not unreasonable.

that is logical and relatively reasonable enough
you are a good man.

But, then again, I might be British, but there's no English blood in my
ancestry (Irish and Scot only) - perhaps that is the differentiating factor.

hmm in all my personal encounters with the british, NONE correct me that
he/she is a english/irish or scotish. i watch footballs too. ;-))

_______
Geoff B

eeeehh - 5 weeks and I'll be back in a little country school in the hills
8¬ )

ey??????
you sound and write familiarly!
were you J...???? in 1999
i was i
did we discuss on dindeng, pratunam, .......... ??????







---------------
cheers
pluto

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:39 +0100, Alfred Molon
wrote:

A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or
other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for
everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below
economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the
service also have to make a living.

Alfred: a truer word seldom has been seen on this NG!
Thanks
Chabby