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(talesofasia) Thailand to Cambodia bus ticket scam
When a bus ticket is not a bus ticket
By Gordon Sharpless November 4. 2004 www.talesofasia.com For about four years now it's been possible to buy a bus ticket from a travel agency on Bangkok's Khao San Road offering transport all the way to Siem Reap. Originally it was nothing more than a few delays, a long visit at a restaurant in Sisophon, and a few minor guesthouse dances. Then the companies entered into a price war, resulting in ticket prices plummeting to as low as a ridiculous 80 baht (about $2 US dollars) for the 450-kilometer journey. To make up for the loss generated by such a nonsensical price, the operators began cooking up a wide variety of scams: overcharging for visas, more restaurant stops, upping the bounty on the heads of the tourists sold to guesthouses, etc and the service became known as the "Scam Ticket". Then in the beginning of 2004, the police in Poipet decided they wanted their cut and the bus ticket prices were pushed back up to the 300 to 600-baht range ($7.50 - $15.00). And with the higher prices we have not seen an improvement in service, but here today, in November 2004, we are now seeing a service that has more scams, more hassles, and more unhappy customers than anytime in the past. I received the following letter this past month: We travelled on the 7th October. We bought our tickets from an agent just off the Khaosan Road who assured us we would go via Poipet - luxury coach/air con minibus. We were taken to a border crossing that our guest house owner thinks must be a new one just opened - we have the word DAUNG as place of entry stamped on our visa. [Gordon he I can confirm that this is the border crossing near Pailin, considerably south of Poipet and most certainly not a direct route to Siem Reap.] There are two things to beware of - first the very helpful man who meets you TELLS you to give him your passport and a photo for your visa - he is with one of the immigration officials as you go into the Cambodian side so it all looks official - he doesn't offer assistance with the visa, or explain that there will be a charge. We didn't fall for this one, having already read very helpful advice on your site. We said we would do our own visas, and we did - this made us very unpopular with him from then on. The visa cost us 1200 baht, not negotiable with the guys preparing the visas, they just shut the window and refused to open it until the could see the 2500 baht being waved at them. We were then escorted (herded) down the road - very dismal dirty place - to an office belonging to a company called Khaosan Travel Connections. Here all the people who had let him do their visa were charged between 1300 - 1700 baht per person for the visa and his service. There was no minibus - a pickup was waiting. He told us that the road was too bad for a minibus to get through - this part at least was true. The first 15 people were put onto that pickup, which at least had a bench seat in it. They set off. The rest of us - the bad girls and boys who either had their visa before they arrived or sorted themselves out - we had to wait a further one and half hours before our pick up turned up - it was 3.30 by the time we set off. The pick up had 6 plus driver inside the cab and nine of us plus all the bags in the back. We had to sit up on the edge of the back and hold on for dear life as the truck jolted along a very poor and sometimes incredible muddy track. We arrived in Siem Reap at 11.30 at night, to be taken to the usual "we will take you to a guest house we recommend to save you the hassle of finding one so late at night". We had already booked ours so we just got in a tuk-tuk and went away. The main thing is that having tried to assure ourselves we were going via Poipet, we didn't and the journey in the pick-up is agony. It seems that there are buses leaving from the Khaosan Road area at 7 am and 7.30 am - we went on the 7 am bus and some people we met later who were on the 7.30 bus did go via Poipet. This might be a red herring but someone might like to test it and let the rest of us know. My friend and I were advised to go to the tourist police by the owner of the guesthouse where we are staying. We did this two days ago and they treated our complaint very seriously. Not only did they take a statement for their own use but a separate one for the "corruption police" too. Apparently the people behind Khaosan Connection Travel are well known to the police as they have been scamming and moving on for a number of years. Some more people staying at our guesthouse also came down the same way. They also reported the problem to the tourist police. Last night we were all invited to headquarters where we were each presented with 200 baht in compensation and assured that Khaosan Connection Travel had been told to stop ripping tourists off. While I think this was largely a PR exercise on the part of the Tourist Police, it does show that they are concerned about people who come to their country. I would urge everyone who gets taken to this border and ripped off by Khaosan Connection Travel to go to the Siem Reap Tourist Police. If they continue to receive these reports, they will realise how much it is happening. I know some people are on a tight schedule of temple cramming when they come to Siem Reap, but if you can spare an hour to report your problems, it will help other fellow travellers. They are particularly keen to know about pressure put on people by local guest house owners when arriving in town. --- So what are we to make of this? Do we chastise the backpackers who are so naive or at least uninformed as to purchase a bus ticket on Khao San Road? Do we rant and rave about the incompetence of Cambodian businesses and how their selfishness is damaging the nation's tourism industry as a whole? Do we lay blame on the Bangkok travel agencies selling the tickets? Do we go after the Cambodian government for allowing these shenanigans to continue? Conversely, do we throw up our hands and say "well, that's how things are, take it or leave it"? Some thoughts on the matter: 1.) Chastise the backpackers who are so naive or at least uninformed as to purchase a bus ticket on Khao San Road. For those who live on either side of the border or who have a reasonable amount of travel experience in the region, it's pretty much a given that under no circumstances do you ever purchase bus tickets to ANY destination from a travel agent on Khao San Road. However, a less experienced traveler, err can I say tourist?, is all too easily enticed by agent after agent selling bus tickets to anyplace you'd want to go, mostly domestic, but to Cambodia, Malaysia, Laos, and even Singapore as well. And with so many staying on or around Khao San Road, you have to concede that the purchasing is convenient, even if the subsequent transportation is not, but few know that at this point. What they do know is buying the ticket is easy and cheap and rarely does the purchaser of said ticket ever wonder why it is so cheap or what it is the Thais do for transport because you certainly don't see them buying bus tickets anywhere on Khao San Road. Having been writing this site for four years and conversing with travelers in the region for seven it's become well obvious how little research and preparation some do prior to traveling. Once on a Koh Kong to Phnom Penh van I was chatting with some tourists about Cambodia, "What's there to see in Cambodia?" they asked. "Well, obviously you'll start with Angkor Wat." "Angkor Wat. What's that?" was their answer. Needless to say there wasn't much else they knew about the country they were already traveling in. And if I were so inclined to fill their heads with stories of Khmer Rouge kidnappings, armed robberies, extortion rackets, etc they'd probably have believed me. And if I owned a guesthouse, well actually I do, I could probably have told them the same crap thereby almost guaranteeing that they stay in every night and eat all my food and drink all my beer. Sad reality is there are guesthouses dishing out this garbage and tourists readily believing it. Yes, there once was a time when one could set off to Asia without the benefit of a guidebook, the internet, or much of anything but a map, a little history, and some knowledge of what a few of the popular tourist attractions might be along the way. But that was before the advent of mass tourism. Backpacking, or in the sense of the romanticism surrounding it that has evolved over the years, is by and large a myth. A tourist is a tourist whether you're staying in dollar a night dorms or thousand dollar a night luxury suites. And with tourism so well developed in this region, traveling without benefit of advance research via guidebooks, the internet, etc is foolish. Thirty years ago you were less likely to be scammed because few took the time to cook up scams because there were so few available marks. Now, with a million visitors a year to Cambodia, twelve, thirteen times that to Thailand, there are plenty of opportunities to rip people off and not surprisingly people come out of the woodwork and get to it. I'd always hoped that over time continued publicity of the problems with purchasing bus tickets on Khao San Road would lead to a reduction, if not (in times of gross optimism) elimination, of these services, but that hasn't been the case. Whether it's a backpacker van to Chiang Mai, a "VIP" bus to Surat Thani, or the scam bus to Siem Reap, these privately run services continue to flourish and continue to provide headaches and worse for the people who use them. Moral of the story: Do your homework. Ultimately you are responsible for yourself. In too many instances, those who get ripped-off were done in because of their own tacit approval. Information on a myriad of pitfalls is out there for anyone who cares to look. 2.) The incompetence and selfishness of Cambodian businesses is damaging the nation's tourism industry as a whole. Well, sort of. Kind of a loaded question, really. Damaging? Yes, to a point. But sweeping indictments of Cambodian business practices are neither accurate nor productive. I've encountered plenty of honest Khmer business owners in Siem Reap who have no more affection for these clowns then the rest of us. "They disgust me." "They give my country a bad name." "I am Cambodian, I have to deal with these people. But I don't like it." "Someday we will improve." The folks running these bus operations approach guesthouse owners with the ever so generous offer that they will bring in the cattle and for every head they drop off, whether the customer stays or not, the guesthouse pays $7 (it used to be $6). And they ensure payment because the guesthouse puts up a $1000 deposit and the balance is worked off through delivery of the cargo. I know a Khmer guesthouse owner who got himself trapped into this mess. He rues the day he ever forked over the deposit. "They come late at night, half the people leave, they say to me, 'why you do this, try to make us stay like this. Why can't you just let us go where we want?' It gives my guesthouse a bad name. I not happy." He won't be paying another thousand dollar deposit. It was once worse. In the earlier days of this marketing program we heard stories of guesthouses locking the gates and not letting people leave. Then some disgruntled tourists made a point of visiting the police the following morning and a guesthouse was fined $2000 and threatened with closure if it ever happened again. Other than selling the tickets and providing transport to the border, the Khao San Road to Siem Reap tourist bus is a Cambodian operation. And while it should not be seen as indicative of Cambodia business as a whole, I would agree that it doesn't do the country any favors because it's part and parcel to a visitor's first impression of Cambodia, which in this case is to be hassled and ripped-off. Welcome to Cambodia, please bend over. I'm of the opinion that no matter how bad the border and bus scams are, if someone is intent on coming to Cambodia, they will come regardless of the situation. But, and this is a big but, what people too often forget is that there are an awful lot of people straddling the fence as to whether they want to visit Cambodia or not. Scenario: Tourist visits Siem Reap, has a great time at Angkor despite being totally ripped-off on the bus ticket, returns to Khao San Road and hangs out at a cafe with a couple of other tourists who have not been to Cambodia. "Oh," one tourist says, "we have a week left on our holiday but haven't made up our minds. A week in Cambodia or a trip to the southern islands." So the tourist fresh back from Siem Reap tells them yeah, Angkor Wat was cool but the border and the bus ticket were a nightmare (and probably not realizing that the Khao San Road bus ticket is most certainly not the only way to Siem Reap by land). Details of the trip are offered over a beer and the other couple looks at each other and, "the southern islands it is" and they're off to Samui. This happens a lot. 3.) Do we lay blame on the Bangkok travel agencies selling the tickets? The awareness and degree of participation on the part of the agents in Bangkok varies from agency to agency. Many have some idea that the tickets are basically nonsense as they've heard the complaints and the questions from potential buyers, "so is this scam ticket I've heard about?" and I've found from conversations that some, if pressed, will concede that the service is garbage, but sell the tickets anyway, "If we don't someone else will." Others will gladly play dumb. More often the case is along the lines of, "what do I care, this is to Cambodia." Still, there are others who are certainly more than willing participants, as once when I was polling agents for prices, a couple of them quoted a higher price for Thais! There's an unusual twist! And also another warning flag as to why no one should buy these tickets... hmm... they're trying to keep Thais off the bus. Why is that? There was a time, however, when the complaints first started rolling in, that several KSR agents did stop selling the tickets and though it's been some time since I last polled agents there, I do recall that some would not sell the tickets because the hassles involved weren't worth the meager commissions. 4.) Do we go after the Cambodian government for allowing these shenanigans to continue? Well, governments around the world are always fair game, but recent interviews with the new Minister of Tourism (see website) indicate that at the very least there is lip service to this problem. And as the above letter indicates and that one guesthouse in Siem Reap was nailed with a $2000 fine for locking in guests, it would seem that the government is not amused by these actions and how they affect Cambodia's image. Whether they can or are even willing to take further steps to do something about it remains to be seen. 5.) Do we throw up our hands and say "well, that's how things are, take it or leave it"? Ah, the apologist. Certainly a good coping mechanism for the apparent insanity of living here but not very productive to initiating change. It's a tough call, where you draw the line between accepting the status quo or trying to promote change. Move too far to acceptance of things and run the risk of becoming too complacent, spend too much time trying to change things and become frustrated and exhausted. Meanwhile, tourists will continue en masse scooping up dodgy bus tickets on Khao San Road and complaining about it later. Given the prices some of these tickets are sold for there's not a whole lot of justification for some of the grumbling. Here, there, or anywhere, you get what you pay for, but what the reader describes above is pure unadulterated nonsense. --- Source: http://www.talesofasia.com |
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It's not so much about scams. The main problem is that operators in Khao
San road don't charge a reasonable price for such a long trip (and they don't charge reasonable prices because backpackers expect to pay nothing or close to nothing - see below). We payed not 80 Baht, but 200 in the year 2000 in Khaosan road and even that doesn't cover the cost of a 13 hours 450 km trip. We also payed an additional 200 Baht each at the border for the privilege to sit inside the cabin of the pickup truck on the Cambodian side. This saved us about eight gruelling hours on the back of a pickup truck sitting on the backpacks under the strong sun (first) and under heavy rain (later). At the border we insisted to go personally to the visa counter (can't remember exactly, but I think I payed 800 Baht vs. the 1000-1200 the others payed - my wife is Malaysian and she didn't need a visa). On the way back the price of the ticket was 600 Baht. Higher, because the travel operator wasn't getting a commission from a guesthouse to cover his expense. A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the service also have to make a living. -- Alfred Molon http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei, Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria, Prague, Budapest and Portugal |
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"On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:39 +0100, Alfred Molon
wrote: A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the service also have to make a living. this attitude is most prevalent amongst the children of former colonials viz british, dutch, spanish, and american. i find the germans quite ok in that they pay the labelled rate and move in herds: safety in number ;-)) the worst is the british, arrogant, demanding and despicable. one british law gradute working at he un told me, she only pays when asked !! what a bitch. further when they congregate together, they regale the "stupidity" of the locals in their (the local) behaviours. nevetheless, the backpackers are prodigious travellers, know short cuts and very street smart. --------------- cheers pluto |
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"pluto" wrote in message ... "On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:39 +0100, Alfred Molon wrote: A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the service also have to make a living. this attitude is most prevalent amongst the children of former colonials viz british, dutch, spanish, and american. i find the germans quite ok in that they pay the labelled rate and move in herds: safety in number ;-)) the worst is the british, arrogant, demanding and despicable. one british law gradute working at he un told me, she only pays when asked !! what a bitch. further when they congregate together, they regale the "stupidity" of the locals in their (the local) behaviours. nevetheless, the backpackers are prodigious travellers, know short cuts and very street smart. --------------- cheers pluto Pluto, You forgot the French among the former colonial powers. It affected my pride :-) Cheers Daniel |
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"On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:46:08 +0700, "Daniel"
wrote: " Pluto, [it is pluto ;-((((((((((((((((( ] You forgot the French among the former colonial powers. It affected my pride :-) Cheers Daniel oooooooops! profound apologies. fortunately i had the greatest of pleasures travelling with the french backpackers. their language which i cannot speak is sooooooooooooo sexy ;-))) and the french girls are BEAUTIFUL and, unlike the british fat assed, dont have body odours ;-)) [footnote: the"fat ass" is due to the money belt hidden in thier waists above their panties for security against being robbed not of their virginity, but of their "paltry valuables" :-)))) ] --------------- cheers pluto |
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"pluto" (sadly) quite correctly mentioned... this attitude is most prevalent amongst the children of former colonials viz british, dutch, spanish, and american. i find the germans quite ok in that they pay the labelled rate and move in herds: safety in number ;-)) the worst is the british, arrogant, demanding and despicable. Thankfully, we aren't _all _ like that. But then, I'm not visiting Thailand to drink, get laid and lie on a beach. My Thai friends throw up their hands when I go shopping, telling me that I could get a much better price. But I recognise that to save what is a small amount by my standards, I am reducing the income of someone by what could be a significant amount to them. Why quibble over 10 or 20 Baht when I already have a bargain . . . And I'm not totally free-spending. I buy when I have a reason to, and when I can see that the price is not unreasonable. But, then again, I might be British, but there's no English blood in my ancestry (Irish and Scot only) - perhaps that is the differentiating factor. _______ Geoff B eeeehh - 5 weeks and I'll be back in a little country school in the hills 8¬ ) |
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"Alfred Molon" wrote in message ... It's not so much about scams. The main problem is that operators in Khao San road don't charge a reasonable price for such a long trip (and they don't charge reasonable prices because backpackers expect to pay nothing or close to nothing - see below). Sometimes it does however work out well. I paid 100 baht from KSR in 2002, minibus to Aranya Prathet, had a visa in advance, didn`t pay anything at the border and a small bus picked us up on the other side of the border and took us the rest of the way to Siam Riap. Couldn`t have been any smoother than that considering the condition of the road in Cambo. No extra fees anywhere. We got off in front of a nice GH where we were expected to stay although no pressure was being applied. 4 dollars for a room in a new place. No complaints from me nor from the rest of the passengers whatsoever. Cheers Michael Christoffersen |
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"pluto" wrote in message ... "On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:46:08 +0700, "Daniel" wrote: " Pluto, [it is pluto ;-((((((((((((((((( ] You forgot the French among the former colonial powers. It affected my pride :-) Cheers Daniel oooooooops! profound apologies. fortunately i had the greatest of pleasures travelling with the french backpackers. their language which i cannot speak is sooooooooooooo sexy ;-))) and the french girls are BEAUTIFUL and, unlike the british fat assed, dont have body odours ;-)) [footnote: the"fat ass" is due to the money belt hidden in thier waists above their panties for security against being robbed not of their virginity, but of their "paltry valuables" :-)))) ] Thanks for your kind comments. But be careful, whatever beautiful and nice smell the French girls have, they are nowadays going strongly into the "kill the machos" exercise that already affected deeply the USA. Well, women's Lib is maybe a right cause, but the extremist, integrist, radical way it has been applied literally quick me out of France, out of the West. I am a member of the lost generation... Our language is maybe very sexy to non-French ears but unfortunately not all the French women remember what it means :-((( Oh, by the way, I wrote "extremist, integrist, radical". Remind me something we talk a lot about here around. Forgot what, getting old :-) Cheers Daniel |
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On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 11:03:39 +0100, Alfred Molon
wrote: A problem is the attitude of backpackers who arrive in Thailand (or other developing countries) and expect to pay almost nothing for everything and are proud when they manage to drive down prices below economical levels, without realising that the people who provide the service also have to make a living. Alfred: a truer word seldom has been seen on this NG! Thanks Chabby |
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