Property Rights vs. Human Rights in the USA

On Sun, 4 Sep 2005 16:52:18 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
wrote:

wrote:
Windcat wrote:

Oh, right, quote the Washington Times. That's an unbiased source.


It's as unbiased as the NYT or WaPo is. When you get down to it, they're all
biased, some more than others, with some leanings more prevalent than others
across rags. How you see this depends on whether they agree with *your* bias
or not, and how far from a reasonable
mutually-agreed-upon-from-different-vantagepoints truth they generally are.
Hard to decide where that is exactly; the more extreme the example the easier
it is to determine. Successful bias is often at its best in the subtleties of
the way an issue is reported.

The Washington Times is roughly in the same league of bias as the two
aforementioned rags.

Don't be silly.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen wrote:
On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:42:53 GMT, "Frank F. Matthews"
wrote:



Any idiot knows the routes out. Why did the mayor leave his
constituents and busses there to flood?


I don't know how it works in louisiana, but in most states the
mayor has nothing to do with the schools and their equipment.
The busses aren't "his", but rather the superintendant of
schools. American school districts are largely autonomous.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Sorry but there is normally a part of the local disaster plan that
requires that public agencies assist with the emergency. In any case
the schools in NO would have looked like idiots to object. And they
would still have busses.

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:42:53 GMT, "Frank F. Matthews"
wrote:


Any idiot knows the routes out. Why did the mayor leave his
constituents and busses there to flood?

I don't know how it works in louisiana, but in most states the
mayor has nothing to do with the schools and their equipment.
The busses aren't "his", but rather the superintendant of
schools. American school districts are largely autonomous.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Frank F. Matthews wrote:
Icono Clast wrote:
Nile wrote:
One helicopter ride and you can identify the high ground and
routes out of the city.

If you're in a helicopter, you don't need to know where "the high
ground and routes out of the city" are.

Any idiot knows the routes out.

When things are normal. Do you know what roads might be accessible to
get you out of town in case of a flood? Or that might also be
undamaged and drivable in case of a greater disaster?

Why did the mayor leave his constituents and busses there to flood?

Don't know that he did but it sure looks that way. There's much talk
about his incompetence but many disagree with those comments.
__________________________________________________ _________________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ - http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 --- IClast at SFbay Net

You are an idiot! Blame Game guy. Whose responsibility is it to protect a
local town? The Sacramento Delta levees are not paid for by the Feds, they
are paid for by the state and local taxing districts. The Army Corps of
Engineers does do some of the work, and shares some of the cost, but most is
from the State and local pockets. Was Clinton who cut the funding, and said
it is the locals responsibility to pay for the levees. Where was your
indignation and blame then? The Fed's have screwed up, but most of the
bureaucrats who do the main work and planning are Civil Service. How many
incompetents are in their jobs because of the Civil Service system? The
state is the primary responsibility in disasters, and the Feds are a backup.
The Feds can not just go in. Small thing like States Rights. Better go
take a Civics course. You either failed to take one in high school, or
failed to learn anything.
"Icono Clast" wrote in message
news:1125747649.918f681d649732f17cd6793bb7732a62@t eranews...
Hatunen wrote:
Icono Clast wrote:
1. Helicopters that could be used to rescue stranded victims, or
drop food and water to them while they wait, are dropping bags
of sand to close the broken levee in New Orleans, i.e.,
protecting property in preference to lives.

Shutting off the water is one way to begin saving lives.

This is your area of expertise. If you say so, I believe you. But I
saw helicopters carrying those huge sand bags that appeared to be
carrying nothing else. After dropping the bag, they could have
dropped food and water to the hungry and thirsty. Of course carrying
capacity of the craft is relevant. Pilots and assistants could be the
lightest-weight people available to do the job thus allowing the
weight saved to be used with supplies. I've heard of nothing of the
sort being done. (We can live a while without food, but not water.)

And I've seen lots of footage of helicopters rescuing people from
rooftops and helicopeter personnel chopping holes in rooftps to
rescue people trapped in attics.

So have we all.

2. Communications are out. They have not equipped aircraft with
loud speakers that could inform those on the ground on what's
goin' down.

What, exactly, do you expect them to tell the people on the
ground?

Oh, things like "Help is on the way" even if it isn't true. Or "If
you can go toward (a landmark) you can get some water (food,
transportation, etc.)".

3. Uniformed personnel have been ordered to "stop the looting"
when they could/should be helping the victims, i.e., protecting
property in preference to lives.

No they wern't. One of the complaints was that law enforcement
personnel were passing looters by.

After that, the order to stop the looting was given. Who cares? The
people are desperate.

The victims are our fellow citizens of the United States of
America. Most of the stranded are poor and Black because, for
the most part, they ARE Black and poor. Were they neither poor
nor Black, would the rescue efforts differ?

i don't know. How are you suggesting they might have differed?
Those helicopters I mentioned above were rescuing black people.
Are you thinking they shuld have left people on rooftops and
trapped in attics? And done what instead?

I'm saying, and today it's being said by commentators, too, that had
the stranded victims not been poor and Black, things might be different.

The breaking levee happened, in part, because of your tax cuts.
Are you enjoying watching the tragedy on the new television set
made possible by your lower tax bill.

It's a lot more complicated than the simplistic scenario you're
suggesting.

Of course it is. But that doesn't negate what I said.

The levees were constructed for Category 3 hurricanes. They could
have been constructed for Category f, but as one politician
pointed out, it's a lost cause to suggest spending tens of
billions of dollars to protect against an event that has never happened
before.

Well, looks like we'll be spending tens of billions because they
weren't spent. And in a month or so we'll learn how many people died
because they weren't when they shoulda been.

Not to mention that everyone likes to call flood control projects
"pork barrel".

Many are, I don't deny. Some aren't.

When it comes down to it, your beloved home town has many similar
problems when it comes to spending for worst possible case events.

Yes, it does. My disgust has turned to anger and, in a not quite
abstract way, fear as, at any instant, San Francisco or Seattle or
Anchorage or Los Angeles or New Madrid could be hit with a Great
'Quake. It's also possible that, when El Niño returns to the
Sacramento-San Joaquin Valley, levees there could break. If they do,
crops will be lost and water supplies to populated places will get
contaminated.

Ed Jay said:
The former head of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the
agency that handles the infrastructure of the nation's
waterways, said the damage in New Orleans probably would have
been much less extensive had flood-control efforts been fully
funded over the years. http://tinyurl.com/bynbc

Yep. But how many California congresscritters will vote on protecting New
Orleans? And, of course, you come head to head the the old problem of
poltical philosophy: why weren't the New orelaners taxing themselves
heavily so they could improve the flood control themselves? And should
they have been?

Valid points, of course. Will the lesson have been learned?
__________________________________________________ _________________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco.
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ - http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 --- IClast at SFbay Net

I wrote:

I hear [the mayor of New Orleans is] now headquartered in Baton
Rouge.

UPDATE: If you're looking for the mayor of New Orleans, you'll now find
him in Dallas.

Texas.


(Article: New Orleans Executives Plan Revival - New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/10/bu...gewanted=print
)