Dutch Money

Martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 00:00:09 +0000, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:07:06 +0000 (UTC), Erilar
wrote:

"James Silverton" wrote.

I wonder if people who pay their credit card bills automatically, ever
check their statements? There *are* sometimes mistakes and frauds.

The opportunity to check the statement before paying it is the reason I
prefer to pay it by check.

You get the same opportunity in chequeless societies

Yeah, funny that. I've not seen so much crap in a thread here for ages.
(And I don't mean from you!) Maybe usenet isn't dead after all.

Much of it is rerun of how can Americans possibly survive in a Europe
hostile to US credit cards.

There is a problem somewhere. Mixi hasn't contributed to the thread.

There's a logical reason for that if you think about it!

--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
www.davidhorne.net (email address on website)
"[Do you think the world learned anything from the first
world war?] No. They never learn." -Harry Patch (1898-2009)

Am 05.02.2011 10:24, schrieb Martin:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 03:45:09 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen wrote:

They now show just the last four digits. But I'm not sure about those
things the vendor sets the card in and then swipes a sales slip with
carbon copies across.

Like this: http://www.card-imprinter.com/cardimprinter.jpg , the old
mechanical devices? Then the carbon copies must show the full card
number - how else could the credit card company know who to charge.

I have read that at one time the device used to store all the transactions in an
unencrypted form in some places. People stole the devices and took them home to
extract the details

These devices have been tampered with both at shops and even during
manufactu

http://www.h-online.com/security/new...s-1028786.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10371659

"In total the nine-month fraud caused losses totalling £725,000."
Nice salary

Jack Campin wrote:

Not sure I'd go back to a shop with a dodgy machine. If you are
going to accept cards, better make it easy for the customer...
We're a charity, so people understand that we can't afford stuff like
dedicated broadband lines for the card machine. And the kind of stuff
we sell isn't the kind of goods bought by people in a hurry.
Yet you write "if there's a queue of customers we don't want to make
them wait for card transactions."
Make your mind up.

Queues are a rare event but one worth mitigating.

What do you get out of nitpicking at people whose practical situation
you can't possibly know?

It's a usenet thread- nitpicking is what it's about, and what you did
when you entered it.

--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
www.davidhorne.net (email address on website)
"[Do you think the world learned anything from the first
world war?] No. They never learn." -Harry Patch (1898-2009)

Am 05.02.2011 10:17, schrieb Martin:
On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 03:40:03 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen wrote:

On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:20:55 +0000, David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*)
wrote:

David Hatunen wrote:

On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 13:09:35 +0000, David Horne wrote:

Tim C. wrote:

That's more-or-less what I do too. I hardly ever use my CC in
day-to-day shopping.

Here, the debit card (visa) functions as both. You can use it for a
£3 purchase at the supermarket, and to buy a £600 airline ticket
online.

Do you have to give the PIN online?

No.

If not, does the money come out of
your account or does it appear to you in a statement for payment?

Of course it comes out of the account- it's a debit card! This thread is
getting far too circular for me...

Then someone could use a stolen debit card to buy airline tickets and not
need a pin. Others have been trying to tell me this can't happen.

In some countries some people accept a debit card without a PIN, but whether an
airline will is another story.

Like in Germany. Shops have to pay a quite high service fee for real
electronic cash including checking the PIN and the account, which
guarantees payment. So shops tend to use "Lastschrift" instead, a
concept not very known outside germanic countries. The card is just used
to read account information like name and account number.
A typical supermarket will use Lastschrift under 50€ and electronic cash
with PIN over 50€

Josef

Am 05.02.2011 11:22, schrieb Martin:
In some countries some people accept a debit card without a PIN, but whether an
airline will is another story.

Like in Germany. Shops have to pay a quite high service fee for real
electronic cash including checking the PIN and the account, which
guarantees payment. So shops tend to use "Lastschrift" instead, a
concept not very known outside germanic countries. The card is just used
to read account information like name and account number.
A typical supermarket will use Lastschrift under 50€ and electronic cash
with PIN over 50€

I haven't encountered that, but I believe you. I read that in NL the charges are
not high, which may explain why just about every retail outlet has a PIN
machine.

In Germany the costs for electronic cash is much higher than for
Lastschrift. So if the handling costs for problems with Lastschrift are
less than fees for using electronic cash for all payments, it's still a
deal for the shops. To minimize risk they use electronic cash for higher
amounts.

Are The Netherlands a Germanic country looks over shoulder :-)

In the last weeks comedians used jokes like:

Q: How broad are The Netherlands?
A: Two tank hours!

So, decide yourself! ;-)

Josef

Josef Kleber wrote:
In Germany the costs for electronic cash is much higher than for
Lastschrift.

Well, everything is higher than "none" Lastschrift (direct debit)
doesn't cost anything. ec costs 0.3%.

less than fees for using electronic cash for all payments, it's still a
deal for the shops. To minimize risk they use electronic cash for higher
amounts.

No, in most cases it's actually not a matter of the amount but of
reputation. The card operator's system decides if a customer is
trustworthy enough for direct debit based on previous habits.

If a customer in front of you only signs the receipt and doesn't need to
enter his PIN, i.e. direct debit is used, you can be sure that he a)
frequently buys at this shop and b) never had a problem with refused
payments. Everybody else: electronic cash with PIN.

Martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 09:29:08 +0000, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 00:00:09 +0000, (David Horne, _the_
chancellor (*)) wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:07:06 +0000 (UTC), Erilar
wrote:

"James Silverton" wrote.

I wonder if people who pay their credit card bills automatically,
ever check their statements? There *are* sometimes mistakes and
frauds.

The opportunity to check the statement before paying it is the reason I
prefer to pay it by check.

You get the same opportunity in chequeless societies

Yeah, funny that. I've not seen so much crap in a thread here for ages.
(And I don't mean from you!) Maybe usenet isn't dead after all.

Much of it is rerun of how can Americans possibly survive in a Europe
hostile to US credit cards.

There is a problem somewhere. Mixi hasn't contributed to the thread.

There's a logical reason for that if you think about it!

He's saving himself for when Erilar discusses French money?

I was thinking more along the lines that he claims he doesn't have
any...

--
(*) of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
www.davidhorne.net (email address on website)
"[Do you think the world learned anything from the first
world war?] No. They never learn." -Harry Patch (1898-2009)

Am 05.02.2011 12:07, schrieb Martin:
On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 12:00:56 +0100, Johannes Kleese wrote:

Josef Kleber wrote:
In Germany the costs for electronic cash is much higher than for
Lastschrift.

Well, everything is higher than "none" Lastschrift (direct debit)
doesn't cost anything. ec costs 0.3%.

less than fees for using electronic cash for all payments, it's still a
deal for the shops. To minimize risk they use electronic cash for higher
amounts.

No, in most cases it's actually not a matter of the amount but of
reputation. The card operator's system decides if a customer is
trustworthy enough for direct debit based on previous habits.

If a customer in front of you only signs the receipt and doesn't need to
enter his PIN, i.e. direct debit is used, you can be sure that he a)
frequently buys at this shop and b) never had a problem with refused
payments. Everybody else: electronic cash with PIN.

Doesn't that mean that there are far more people employed by banks to pass bits
of paper around than in for example a paperless transaction Germanic country on
Germany's western border?

No, the paper is just for the shop, because the costumer has to
authorize the shop for Lastschrift. The banks don't care until problems
are reported.

Josef


--
Keine Sicherheit ohne Schäuble:
GNUPG/PGP-Key unter http://www.josef-kleber.de/pgp/Josef_Kleber_News.asc
DSA 1024 / 0xF4B1EA2A / F832 6058 319E FFD4 0EFF 088C 521B 40D4 F4B1 EA2A

Am 05.02.2011 11:54, schrieb Martin:
On Sat, 05 Feb 2011 11:40:20 +0100, Josef Kleber
wrote:

Am 05.02.2011 11:22, schrieb Martin:
In some countries some people accept a debit card without a PIN, but whether an
airline will is another story.

Like in Germany. Shops have to pay a quite high service fee for real
electronic cash including checking the PIN and the account, which
guarantees payment. So shops tend to use "Lastschrift" instead, a
concept not very known outside germanic countries. The card is just used
to read account information like name and account number.
A typical supermarket will use Lastschrift under 50€ and electronic cash
with PIN over 50€

I haven't encountered that, but I believe you. I read that in NL the charges are
not high, which may explain why just about every retail outlet has a PIN
machine.

In Germany the costs for electronic cash is much higher than for
Lastschrift. So if the handling costs for problems with Lastschrift are
less than fees for using electronic cash for all payments, it's still a
deal for the shops. To minimize risk they use electronic cash for higher
amounts.

Are The Netherlands a Germanic country looks over shoulder :-)

In the last weeks comedians used jokes like:

Q: How broad are The Netherlands?
A: Two tank hours!

allowing for traffic jams on the border :-)

About the same width as France?


Taking hisrorical experience into acoount: not much longer! ;-)
But now there's this ethnic hungarian dwarf with is atomic suitcase.
That changed the game! :-((

Josef

Am 05.02.2011 12:00, schrieb Johannes Kleese:
Josef Kleber wrote:
In Germany the costs for electronic cash is much higher than for
Lastschrift.

Well, everything is higher than "none" Lastschrift (direct debit)
doesn't cost anything. ec costs 0.3%.

less than fees for using electronic cash for all payments, it's still a
deal for the shops. To minimize risk they use electronic cash for higher
amounts.

No, in most cases it's actually not a matter of the amount but of
reputation. The card operator's system decides if a customer is
trustworthy enough for direct debit based on previous habits.


Of course, if there were problems already. But there seems to be
different strategies. In the end it's a decision of the shop. My
experience with Penny is what i reported. Sometimes i buy a harddisc or
something like that and then i have to enter PIN, although i frequently
bought there and i don't know of any reputation problems! ;-)

Josef

--
Keine Sicherheit ohne Schäuble:
GNUPG/PGP-Key unter http://www.josef-kleber.de/pgp/Josef_Kleber_News.asc
DSA 1024 / 0xF4B1EA2A / F832 6058 319E FFD4 0EFF 088C 521B 40D4 F4B1 EA2A