LAT/AP: Woman dies during flight after being refused help

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:20:37 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:


It's too bad that journalists make reports without checking all the facts.

Unfortunately this isn't the first or only instance of it happening.

But I imagine the trial lawyers have made their presence known to the
family.

On Feb 26, 1:22 pm, "Mr. Travel" wrote:
Sancho Panza wrote:
"Mr. Travel" wrote in message
...

Sancho Panza wrote:

"John Kulp" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:58:35 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Justin Case writes:

The Times Story notes it was the oxygen equipment aboard the plane.

So the oxygen equipment has not been maintained (if two devices were
empty).

By someone. If someone is going to print a story like this they
should tell the whole story.

Maybe the airline should be more forthcoming about just what its problem
was.

The airline didn't have a problem. There were qualified medical people
onboard the plane trying to help the woman. She died. People die. She just
happened to die on a commercial flight.

Right. Had nothing to do with the delay in response. Had nothing to do with
the inadequate oxygen bottles and the late use of the defibrillator.

The doctor at the scene made it clear that he didn't have much to work with.

There was nothing wrong with the ozygen bottle or the defibrillator.
They weren't used, because the medical peresonal didn't believe they
were the best course of action.

It seems that was a decision by the crew. If there was nothing wrong
with the oxygen bottle, why did they try to use the second one?


A defibrillator is used restore normal sinus rhythm to start one that
has stopped. The woman had neither problem.

Sinus seems off target:

Why a defibulator is needed
Sudden cardiac arrest (SCA) usually happens without warning and the
majority of people have no previously recognized symptoms of heart
disease. For the best chance of survival from SCA caused by VF, a
defibulator should be used within 5 minutes. Yet, less than 1 in 20
people survive largely because a defibulator does not arrive in time.

http://www.heartstarthome.com/us/2/defibulator.html



A defibrillator is used to restore a normal heart rhythm by delivering
an electrical shock to the heart when the heartbeat is dangerously
fast due to ventricular tachycardia or ventricular fibrillation.
Either of these conditions can be life-threatening, possibly causing
the heart to abruptly cease pumping blood to the body (cardiac
arrest), leading to sudden cardiac death.

At one point, defibrillators were used only by physicians in a
hospital. However, recent technological advances have allowed people
with minimal medical training to use automatic external defibrillators
(AEDs) in an emergency The conduction system is the system by which
electrical impulses pace the heartbeat (heart rate).when medical
professionals are not present. Studies have shown that use of public
access defibrillators (PADs) within moments of collapse significantly
raises the survival rate from cardiac arrest and increases the
likelihood of a meaningful recovery. Based on these studies, the
American Heart Association has endorsed the use of PADs.

http://yourtotalhealth.ivillage.com/defibrillator.html


Additionally, just because the woman or her relatives thought giving her
pure oxygen might help, the MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS felt otherwise.

Obviously they didn't if they adminstered the treatment after all.
She had more care available on that plane then she would have had most
anywhere else she might have been.

That is why flying is recommended so highly when one is going to have
an infarction.

On Feb 26, 1:01 pm, (John Kulp) wrote:
On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:31:11 -0500, "Sancho Panza"



wrote:

"Mr. Travel" wrote in message
...
Sancho Panza wrote:
"John Kulp" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:58:35 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Justin Case writes:

The Times Story notes it was the oxygen equipment aboard the plane.

So the oxygen equipment has not been maintained (if two devices were
empty).

By someone. If someone is going to print a story like this they
should tell the whole story.

Maybe the airline should be more forthcoming about just what its problem
was.

The airline didn't have a problem. There were qualified medical people
onboard the plane trying to help the woman. She died. People die. She just
happened to die on a commercial flight.

Right. Had nothing to do with the delay in response. Had nothing to do with
the inadequate oxygen bottles and the late use of the defibrillator.

The doctor at the scene made it clear that he didn't have much to work with.

That's right you moron. It had nothing to do with any of those things
according to news reports. They didn't delay anything. They had 12
functioning bottles of oxygen on board and several doctors as well who
treated her. She just died you moron. You're not one for getting
your facts straight are you?

Ignoring the ranting name-calling of someone who obviously has an ever-
so-important agenda, here are some of the facts that the above
"according to news reports" sees to fit to include:

Woman Dies On Flight From Haiti To New York
Airline Investigation Disputes Cousin's Account
NEW YORK (CBS) -- American Airlines on Monday insisted it tried to help
a passenger who died after complaining she couldn't breathe, and
disputed the account of a relative who said that she was denied oxygen
and that medical devices failed.

The airline said the oxygen tanks and a defibrillator were working and
noted that several medical professionals on the flight, including a
doctor, tried to save passenger Carine Desir, 44, who had heart
disease.

"American Airlines, after investigation, has determined that oxygen
was administered on the aircraft, and it was working, and the
defibrillator was applied as well," airline spokesman Charley Wilson
said Monday.

Desir had complained of not feeling well and being very thirsty on the
Friday flight home from Port-au-Prince, Haiti, after she ate a meal,
according to Antonio Oliver, a cousin who was traveling with her and
her brother, Joel Desir. A flight attendant gave her water, he said.

A few minutes later, Desir said she was having "trouble breathing" and
asked for oxygen, but a flight attendant twice refused her request,
Oliver said.

"Don't let me die," he recalled her saying.

He said other passengers aboard Flight 896 became agitated over the
situation, and the flight attendant, apparently after phone
consultation with the cockpit, tried to administer oxygen from a
portable tank and mask, but the tank was empty.

Oliver said two doctors and two nurses were aboard and tried to
administer oxygen from a second tank, which also was empty. Desir was
placed on the floor, and a nurse tried CPR, Oliver said. A
defibrillator, which he called a "box," also was applied but didn't
function effectively, he said.

Oliver said he then asked for the plane to "land right away so I can
get her to a hospital," and the pilot agreed to divert to Miami, 45
minutes away. But during that time Desir collapsed and died, Oliver
said.

"Her last words were, 'I cannot breathe,"' he said.

There were 12 oxygen tanks on the plane and the crew checked them
before the flight took off to make sure they were working, Wilson
said. He said at least two were used on Desir.

The Federal Aviation Administration requires commercial flights to
carry no fewer than two oxygen dispensers. The main goal of the rule
is to have oxygen available in the event of a rapid cabin
decompression, but it can also be used for other emergencies. It is up
to the airlines to maintain the canisters.

Flight attendants are trained not to automatically give oxygen to
every passenger who requests it but instead use airline criteria to
judge when it's needed, said Leslie Mayo, a spokeswoman for the union
representing American's attendants.

Wilson said Desir's cousin flagged down a flight attendant and said
the woman had diabetes and needed oxygen. "The flight attendant
responded, 'OK, but we usually don't need to treat diabetes with
oxygen, but let me check anyway and get back to you."'

Wilson said the employee spoke with another flight attendant, and both
went to Desir within one to three minutes.

"By that time the situation was worsening, and they immediately began
administering oxygen," he said.

Wilson said the defibrillator was used but that the machine indicated
Desir's heartbeat was too weak to activate the unit.

http://wcbstv.com/topstories/Woman.d....2.661889.html

"Brian" wrote in message
...
On 25 Feb 2008 21:14:33 GMT, James Robinson wrote:


There's more to the story than was originally presented by the cousin.

The passenger was diabetic, and had a heart condition.

American says that when the flight attendant was told of the problem, she
went to the senior attendant, and both returned to help the passenger,
after notifying the captain. Both oxygen cylinders they used were working
properly, and that there are twelve cylinders on that type of aircraft to
choose from. They said that when they tried the automatic defibulator, it
told them that the person's pulse was too weak to sense, and would
therefore not fire off.

The flight was about to divert to Miami, but there were a doctor and two
nurses on the aircraft that attended to the passenger, and the doctor
declared the passenger dead, so they continued to New York City instead.

I saw Pauline Frommer on TV tonight. She also said that there were a
number of oxygen cylinders but that the doctor(s?) elected to use the
bag manually to try to get more oxygen in.

She said that the defibrillator detected an adequate pulse so it
didn't defibrillate. I'm not sure if that is true or if didn't detect
any pulse.

I saw some relatives of the deceased on TV and they didn't seem
particularly knowledgeable about medical devices.

AEDs only read electrical energy, they don't detect pulses. An AED is
placed on a person only if there is no pulse felt by the rescuer (or in the
case of an AHA Heartsaver trained person if they are not breathing.) This
can be difficult in an airplane or any other moving vehicle. Even if
properly applied and used, an AED won't shock every patient it is placed on
as there are only two electrical rhythms within the heart that is "allowed"
to shock by it's programming. If the electrical pattern in the heart is
different than those two rhythms it won't shock and the only recourse is to
provide CPR. Any other treatment for those that it doesn't shock are drugs
which attempt to excite the heart to restore electrical activity or produce
a stronger pulse.

I teach CPR/AED use to lay and professional people and also use them in the
course of my profession. I also teach emergency medical technician programs
in my home state.

As for the "bag" used by the physician, I would like to know what type of
bag was actually used. If this was a Bag-Valve-Mask unit, either hooked up
to supplemental oxygen or just using "room air", this would have been
preferable than just using a flow device on a person that was not breathing
or not breathing adequately as may have been the case here.

Sancho Panza wrote:


Sinus seems off target:

Why? Are you saying an AED is NOT used to restore sinus rhythm?

See http://www.cintas.com/PDF/FirstAidSa...l_DAC-515E.pdf

Page 4, Table 3.1, ITEM #1 in the table

Mr. Travel writes:

Of course, since the AED is only useful in limited cirmcumstances, not
shocking someone could mean it was working as expected. Given the
misinformation from the relatives about the AED, I don't trust their
knowledge of whether the oxygen was empty or useful in this case.

The woman complained of intense thirst after a meal. That, plus a history of
diabetes mellitus, is significant.

On Feb 27, 1:06*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mr. Travel writes:
Of course, since the AED is only useful in limited cirmcumstances, not
shocking someone could mean it was working as expected. Given the
misinformation from the relatives about the AED, I don't trust their
knowledge of whether the oxygen was empty or useful in this case.

The woman complained of intense thirst after a meal. *That, plus a history of
diabetes mellitus, is significant.

Yes, as one more distraction for the medical personnel from what
likely killed her. By informating the stewardess that she had
diabetes & needed oxygen, that delayed treatment. It obviously
confused the stewardess. It's like saying "I am nearsighted, and so I
need morphine."

Perhaps insulin could have saved her, which makes me wonder why they
weren't yelling for insulin instead of oxygen.

"Darryl" wrote in message
...
On Feb 27, 1:06 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mr. Travel writes:
Of course, since the AED is only useful in limited cirmcumstances, not
shocking someone could mean it was working as expected. Given the
misinformation from the relatives about the AED, I don't trust their
knowledge of whether the oxygen was empty or useful in this case.

The woman complained of intense thirst after a meal. That, plus a history
of
diabetes mellitus, is significant.

Yes, as one more distraction for the medical personnel from what
likely killed her. By informating the stewardess that she had
diabetes & needed oxygen, that delayed treatment. It obviously
confused the stewardess. It's like saying "I am nearsighted, and so I
need morphine."

Perhaps insulin could have saved her, which makes me wonder why they
weren't yelling for insulin instead of oxygen.



A diabetic that doesn't have enough insulin (signified by intense thirst,
frequent urination, etc.) will normally have a slow onset (hours to days) of
symptoms that eventually will kill, should have been recognized for a period
of time by either the patient or one of her travelling companions or
relatives. The administration of too much insulin or not properly eating
(replenishing sugar, which apparently is not the case because "after a
meal") can lead to sudden onset of symptoms (minutes to hours.) Since there
has been no mention of the patient injecting insulin into her body,
hypoglycemia (Insulin shock) is probably not the cause of her demise and
with what I know about the symptoms and treatment of hyperglycemia, this
also is probably not the cause of the demise. What probably killed this
woman was years of neglect of her health and her underlying diabetes which
will cause many different cardiac and blood vessel conditions that aren't
treatable with an AED but can cause sudden death.