Zenith & Horizon going to Island Cruises !!!!

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 16:13:42 GMT, Tom & Linda
wrote:

Celebrity also needs a strategic direction from a new build
perspective, not just cold towels and free champagne.

Hi Tom & Ben,

Royal Caribbean has stated that they have no plans to add more new
ships to their Celebrity fleet. The fleet is overbuilt as it is. Why
would they want to worsen the situation? The emphasis is on raising
the Premium perception of the current product. A very good
strategy,imo.

Best regards,
Ray
LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL
800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905
http://www.lighthousetravel.com

What makes us think that Royal Caribbean has a clue as to what to do
with Celebrity?

My concept of adding to the fleet assumes offloading the Zenith/Horizon
and Century class ships. Maybe not immediately... but with a specific
plan for the future. If they want to position themselves as premium,
then they need ships that have balconies - which I stressed in my other
posts. You can't expect to compete as a premium ship if you have very
few balconies (like Century) and expect to charge more than RCI does
with a ship like Radiance, or NCL does with a ship like Dawn, or
Carnival does with a ship like Pride.

To ignore this is foolish in my opinion. You can't realistically expect
someone to pay more for an outside cabin on Century than for a balcony
cabin on Radiance. It's simply not logical, even if Celebrity does have
better food.

Ben may not think he needs a balcony to enjoy a cruise, but the simple
fact is that cruise lines can get more money for balconies. If you want
to charge premium prices, premium add on's to an outside cabin won't get
you as much money as premium add on's to a balcony cabin.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear, but which could you get higher prices
for? An outside cabin on Century (with better food) or a balcony cabin
on Radiance? On a comparative basis, it's the balcony that allows you
to charge a higher price in the first place.

To me, without balconies, premium is basically meaningless. Sure there
are exceptions like Bermuda, but I'm looking overall.

--Tom

Ray Goldenberg wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 16:13:42 GMT, Tom & Linda
wrote:

Celebrity also needs a strategic direction from a new build
perspective, not just cold towels and free champagne.

Hi Tom & Ben,

Royal Caribbean has stated that they have no plans to add more new
ships to their Celebrity fleet. The fleet is overbuilt as it is. Why
would they want to worsen the situation? The emphasis is on raising
the Premium perception of the current product. A very good
strategy,imo.

Best regards,
Ray
LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL
800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905
http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Hi yes todays ships need balconies !! On the Zuiderdam last summer we got a
very good balconie cabin for lest then it would had been if we did the cruise
with Tom on the GSC !! in an inside cabin .I can forsee where most balconies
cabins will be priced just like outside cabins .That's where the cruise line
are heading .But for us it was nice have an balconie cabin . But inside or our
side was just as good . We didn;t use it all that much !! I think the hole
cruise we us it about an hour and a half !! We really only use the cabin for
sleeping and getting dress !! Now if i want a big hotel room then we would stay
in one of theos resorts !!
Ken G.........

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 21:45:59 GMT, Tom & Linda
wrote:

Maybe I'm not making myself clear, but which could you get higher prices
for? An outside cabin on Century (with better food) or a balcony cabin
on Radiance? On a comparative basis, it's the balcony that allows you
to charge a higher price in the first place.

To me, without balconies, premium is basically meaningless. Sure there
are exceptions like Bermuda, but I'm looking overall.

Hi Tom,

Balconies, how about luxury cruise lines? Have you checked pricing on
Seabourn lately? vbg
FWIW, there are no balconies on Seabourn except for the retro-fitted
"French Balconies" which are not what most would consider real
balconies..

Best regards,
Ray
LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL
800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905
http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Tom & Linda wrote:
What makes us think that Royal Caribbean has a clue as to what to do
with Celebrity?

My concept of adding to the fleet assumes offloading the Zenith/Horizon
and Century class ships. Maybe not immediately... but with a specific
plan for the future. If they want to position themselves as premium,
then they need ships that have balconies - which I stressed in my other
posts. You can't expect to compete as a premium ship if you have very
few balconies (like Century) and expect to charge more than RCI does
with a ship like Radiance, or NCL does with a ship like Dawn, or
Carnival does with a ship like Pride.

Tom, you aren't comparing the same vintage ships. All of the lines have
ships that have fewer balconies than the newer ones. I really think this
has *nothing* to do with premium vs. more a vintage of ship. You want to
compare the Century to an RCI ship, compare it to the Vision, not the
Radiance. You want to compare a ship with Radiance, it is the Millennium
and her sisters, not the Mercury. The Pride compares with the newest
Celebrity ships, not the previous ones. Hell, when the Century came out,
and was fairly cutting-edge at the time, Carnival was still producing
the rather outmoded Elation and Paradise, very old designs for the time.

Yes, Celebrity can and will charge more for certain itineraries, they
all do. Some Zenith sailings are more than Millennium, and Millennium
has more amenities. Forget about balconies, Millennium is a plusher,
more upscale ship than the Zenith. But *premium* or *luxury* is about
service and product delivery first, not the latest amenity that the
newest members of the fleet offer.



To ignore this is foolish in my opinion. You can't realistically expect
someone to pay more for an outside cabin on Century than for a balcony
cabin on Radiance. It's simply not logical, even if Celebrity does have
better food.


Why not? If the service, cuisine, passenger density, etc. are of a
noticeably higher level (not saying that they are but people pay more
for these things). You have to compare Millennium to Radiance, Century
to Legend of the Seas. You pay more for Century because it is a
Celebrity experience vs. an RCI experience, and that includes much more
than the balcony. But today you don't, that's why Celebrity is trying to
limit the size of their fleet and get the quality up to where they can
charge more, and they have the hardware to do it, it is the software
that needs tweaking.


Ben may not think he needs a balcony to enjoy a cruise, but the simple
fact is that cruise lines can get more money for balconies. If you want
to charge premium prices, premium add on's to an outside cabin won't get
you as much money as premium add on's to a balcony cabin.


I don't know how true that is. At one time a balcony may have been a big
deal but with so many to choose from these days I doubt there's a huge
profit in them. At one time a cell phone was a status symbol, now it is
just something most people have. The same with balconies, they are just
regular cabins now, and new ships have a large amount of them. But that
doesn't mean that the older ships still don't have a significant amount
more service in them.

The problem I have with your wanting to offload the Zenith and Horizon
and Century class is that these are the ships designed for Celebrity by
Celebrity and I'm sorry, these give a much more successful Celebrity
style of cruise than does the hybrid Millennium ships, which seems like
any ship with a Celebrity flavor. The Century, as a ship, is barely
middle aged so I don't understand the need to talk about having it go
anywhere, and, as I said, sells out *faster* than the newer ships and in
polls that I've seen from Celebrity fans, is listed as a favorite ship
more than any of the newer ships. Ships, through the years, draw a fan
base and repeaters, and the Century does well in this regard.


Maybe I'm not making myself clear, but which could you get higher prices
for? An outside cabin on Century (with better food) or a balcony cabin
on Radiance? On a comparative basis, it's the balcony that allows you
to charge a higher price in the first place.


No, it is the newness of the Radiance. With the Voyager it is the
newness and also the amount of stuff in that ship that can allow RCI to
charge more. And again, Radiance compares with Millennium or newer and
not Century.


To me, without balconies, premium is basically meaningless. Sure there
are exceptions like Bermuda, but I'm looking overall.


I see no connection to the two. Balconies have nothing to do with
premium qualities as they are part of entry-level ships at this point.
They have to do with newer ships having more of them, nothing more.
Celebrity will be premium when they address what people complain about
and lack of balconies is not a frequent complaint because there are
plenty of them on 4 91,000 ton ships.



--Tom

Ray Goldenberg wrote:

On Sat, 01 Nov 2003 16:13:42 GMT, Tom & Linda
wrote:


Celebrity also needs a strategic direction from a new build
perspective, not just cold towels and free champagne.

Hi Tom & Ben,

Royal Caribbean has stated that they have no plans to add more new
ships to their Celebrity fleet. The fleet is overbuilt as it is. Why
would they want to worsen the situation? The emphasis is on raising
the Premium perception of the current product. A very good
strategy,imo.



Actually, this is the strategy that I've been hoping for for years. I'm
not a fan of the shipbuilding boom and think that it is time to slow it
down. I'm glad that HAL has pulled back the amount of Vista ships
planned and I hope Carnival realizes that there is a limit to the
premium market vs. the larger market for the Carnival line.

Ben


Best regards,
Ray
LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL
800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905
http://www.lighthousetravel.com

KPJEG wrote:
Hi yes todays ships need balconies !! On the Zuiderdam last summer we got a
very good balconie cabin for lest then it would had been if we did the cruise
with Tom on the GSC !! in an inside cabin .I can forsee where most balconies
cabins will be priced just like outside cabins .That's where the cruise line
are heading .But for us it was nice have an balconie cabin . But inside or our
side was just as good . We didn;t use it all that much !! I think the hole
cruise we us it about an hour and a half !! We really only use the cabin for
sleeping and getting dress !!

That's how I see it, Ken. Inside or outside. And you're right, balcony
cabins aren't much more if any more than outside cabins these days.


Now if i want a big hotel room then we would stay
in one of theos resorts !!

Here's where a balcony may make sense. I think going on a ship is about
the ship, about the deck space, public areas, service, etc. The
stateroom is a much smaller priority, but I think that amenities in the
stateroom, size of the shower, if there is a bath and/or jacuzzi, type
of toiletries, fruit in cabins, configuration, quality of bedding, can
go towards justifying the cost of the cruise as opposed to a basic and
small balcony where you are one in a row of them.

Ben S.


Ken G.........

On 31 Oct 2003 09:24:48 -0800, (Benjamin Smith)
wrote:

I don't agree with Tom that the only RCI ships are Voyager class, the
Radiance class has just as much approval and are a natural progression
from the Vision class--some folks also don't want to go on the massive
Voyager ships. I think the 85000 to 92000 or so ton size is the new
mainstream ship size, replacing the 70 to 80,000 tonners.

Amazing, isn't it? When we think in terms of 80,000 ton ships as not
being massive.

I liked my AFT balcony! I have another Aft Balcony in Cat C for this next
cruise your all welcome to come view the sea from there with me!
Ben we were talking aboutyou this weekend You will be missed on this next
cruise! You are very lovedc by all. ESP since your the KAroke KING..


Susette
Join us on our Annual Group Cruise 29Nov03 Navigator of the Seas
Check out our new website: www.cruiseoutlets.com

te as a premium ship if you have very
few balconies (like Century) and expect to charge more than RCI

I can not understand why CELEB will not build aNEW smaller ship with Balconies
they can charge a higher Per Diem and get it. People want balconies and there
is a market for small ships
Susette
Join us on our Annual Group Cruise 29Nov03 Navigator of the Seas
Check out our new website: www.cruiseoutlets.com

itted
"French Balconies" which are not what most would consider real
balconies..

SAw the Seabourne Pride last week and Those French Balconies are a WASTE
Susette
Join us on our Annual Group Cruise 29Nov03 Navigator of the Seas
Check out our new website: www.cruiseoutlets.com