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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing
the superiority of Russian orchestras. We've had someone explaining Russian superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians I've never heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc. musicians. Since we've had a ballet subscription to the Kennedy Center for nearly twenty years, I can only use my experience as a reasonably knowledgeable audience member of ballet to extrapolate to symphony. I really don't think Russian ballet companies are better than the best of American, Danish, British, French, or German ballet companies. The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies were included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these two companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be confident I'll see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is technically excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery, costumes, and pantomime. When the leads do their solos and variations, I can see the talent of the dancers: Russian men tend to execute leaps requiring strength well; Russian women execute their steps with precision; and the corps tend to be quite uniform. But the Royal Ballet, the Paris Opera Ballet, the American Ballet Theatre, and the Royal Danish Ballets are every bit the equals in dancing the big story ballets. (I saw the Ballet Nacional de Cuba dance a GISELLE that was a revelation of what that classic ballet could be.) However, if I want to see a Balanchine ballet, I'd much rather watch the New York City Ballet or American Ballet Theatre than either Russian company. If I want to watch a MacMillan ballet, I'd much rather see the Royal Ballet instead of either Russian company. The list goes on. So what's the story with Russian orchestras? Karen Selwyn |
#2
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
travel ?
"Karen Selwyn" a écrit dans le message de news: FQ0Fg.10895$ok5.6152@dukeread01... We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing the superiority of Russian orchestras. We've had someone explaining Russian superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians I've never heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc. musicians. Since we've had a ballet subscription to the Kennedy Center for nearly twenty years, I can only use my experience as a reasonably knowledgeable audience member of ballet to extrapolate to symphony. I really don't think Russian ballet companies are better than the best of American, Danish, British, French, or German ballet companies. The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies were included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these two companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be confident I'll see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is technically excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery, costumes, and pantomime. When the leads do their solos and variations, I can see the talent of the dancers: Russian men tend to execute leaps requiring strength well; Russian women execute their steps with precision; and the corps tend to be quite uniform. But the Royal Ballet, the Paris Opera Ballet, the American Ballet Theatre, and the Royal Danish Ballets are every bit the equals in dancing the big story ballets. (I saw the Ballet Nacional de Cuba dance a GISELLE that was a revelation of what that classic ballet could be.) However, if I want to see a Balanchine ballet, I'd much rather watch the New York City Ballet or American Ballet Theatre than either Russian company. If I want to watch a MacMillan ballet, I'd much rather see the Royal Ballet instead of either Russian company. The list goes on. So what's the story with Russian orchestras? Karen Selwyn |
#3
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
Runge ha scritto: travel ? "Karen Selwyn" a écrit dans le message de news: FQ0Fg.10895$ok5.6152@dukeread01... We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing the superiority of Russian orchestras. Travel, travel. I have had the fortune to attend theaters both in New York and in Leningrad (before it changed name). Here is my opinion. Russian instrumentalists are simply not surpassable for technique, dedication and amalgama. Russian orchestras are what is needed to perform (heavy) russian symphonic music. Just a tad, to be kind, heavy and baroque, though. Don't ask them to play joyous Vivaldi nor Mozart. Let a western orchestra play some major Schostakovitch and you fieel that so much is lacking, though. I believe the same goes in other fields, as well. You just need to travel, guys. Sergio Pisa |
#4
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
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#5
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians
are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc. musicians. There are two issues here. One issue is that Russian musicians are superior to all others. The other issue is that European musicians are superior to American, Asian, or African musicians. The first issue is only possibly true for Russian music, and some listeners believe that Russians play Russian music better than others. The second issue is definitely true. In the case of historically informed performances (HIP), the world's best musicians are Europeans, especially the Dutch, Austrians, and some Britains. When one thinks of the world's best orchestras, they are all European: Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, etc. Chicago and Cleveland have been great at various periods, but the VPO has always been superb. The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies were included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these two companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be confident I'll see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is technically excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery, costumes, and pantomime. So, you admit that the technical skills of the Bolshoi and Kirov are equal to the best in the world. So what's your point? The American Ballet Theatre is superb, especially Gillian Murphy, as are some European ballet companies like the Paris Ballet. However, look at the DVD of Swan Lake by the La Scala Ballet. Odette / Odile is played by a Russian, Svetlana Zakharova. And the skills of the general company are simply not as good as the general company of the Bolshoi and Kirov. |
#6
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
spamfree wrote:
So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc. musicians. There are two issues here. One issue is that Russian musicians are superior to all others. The other issue is that European musicians are superior to American, Asian, or African musicians. The first issue is only possibly true for Russian music, and some listeners believe that Russians play Russian music better than others. The second issue is definitely true. In the case of historically informed performances (HIP), the world's best musicians are Europeans, especially the Dutch, Austrians, and some Britains. When one thinks of the world's best orchestras, they are all European: Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, etc. Chicago and Cleveland have been great at various periods, but the VPO has always been superb. The first time the Kirov and, then, the Bolshoi Ballet Companies were included in our subscription, I went to the theater with great anticipation. Now, many years later, I am more blase about these two companies. Attending one of their performances, I can be confident I'll see a fine full-length story ballet performance that is technically excellent but -- to my taste -- too heavy on scenery, costumes, and pantomime. So, you admit that the technical skills of the Bolshoi and Kirov are equal to the best in the world. So what's your point? The word "admit" puts a spin in my post that wasn't there. I was totally up front about Russian technical skill; re-read my post and you'll see I rather objectively acknowlege the strengths of Russian ballet companies. You're not grudgingly wringing any admission from me. My post simply pointed out that as talented as the Russian dancers/companies may be, they are not singularly entitled to that description. Furthermore, for some types of dancing, they aren't even in contention. Since this is true for ballet, I couldn't comprehend how others could make such sweeping and universal claims of superiority for Russian orchestras. The American Ballet Theatre is superb, especially Gillian Murphy, as are some European ballet companies like the Paris Ballet. However, look at the DVD of Swan Lake by the La Scala Ballet. Odette / Odile is played by a Russian, Svetlana Zakharova. And the skills of the general company are simply not as good as the general company of the Bolshoi and Kirov. Please, let's not compare apples and oranges. You can't be seriously trying to compare the Bolshoi and Kirov to La Scalla Ballet. I won't argue with your conclusion in that particular match-up. But that misses the point. The American Ballet Theatre, Royal Ballet, or Paris Opera Ballet are every bit the equal of the Bolshoi and Kirov companies. Of course, if you insist on an apples and oranges comparison, I win with the "The Russian Ballet" company, one of the truly pathetic ballet companies of all time. Summer 2003, we saw this company perform at the Alexandrinsky Theater in St. Petersburg. These dancers weren't even good enough to be the senior students at the top Russian dance academies, much less a paid professional company. Anyone who formed his/her opinion of Russian ballet on the basis of this performance would be hard-pressed to praise anything other than the opulence of the theater. Suffice it to say that the roles of Odette/Odile had to be assigned to two separate ballerinas because no ballerina in that company could pull off the challenging double role. Someone unfamiliar with SWAN LAKE might not have realized what was going on with two ballerinas, but the fact that the male lead fell a couple of times and it was a pleasant surprise when the corps was in unison was unmistakable to the most casual observer. Karen Selwyn |
#7
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
The American Ballet Theatre is superb, especially Gillian Murphy,
as are some European ballet companies like the Paris Ballet. However, look at the DVD of Swan Lake by the La Scala Ballet. Odette / Odile is played by a Russian, Svetlana Zakharova. And the skills of the general company are simply not as good as the general company of the Bolshoi and Kirov. Please, let's not compare apples and oranges. You can't be seriously trying to compare the Bolshoi and Kirov to La Scalla Ballet. I won't argue with your conclusion in that particular match-up. But that misses the point. The American Ballet Theatre, Royal Ballet, or Paris Opera Ballet are every bit the equal of the Bolshoi and Kirov companies. Actually this is more of a fruit basket. The ABT is really the only truly great American ballet company, hence my point. The USA has twice the population of Russia (I'm rounding a bit, but not too much) and exactly 1/2 as many great ballet companies. Actually it is worse than that, because Russia has better ballet in Perm than the USA does in SF. My comparison of the Bolshoi/Kirov versus La Scala - and you are correct, it is no comparison - was intended to show that a Russian dancer was the top doggie. And even the Paris Ballet uses lines on the stage to show the herds how/where to move, but the Bolshoi/Kirov employ no such aids. Though I must admit, the Paris Ballet has the best looking women dancers in the world, probably not a big criteria for you. |
#8
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
Karen Selwyn wrote: We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing the superiority of Russian orchestras. Really? When was this? (I do remember pointing out to some asshole or other - "mr travel", I think - that one "accomplished" orchestra is not a substitute for another, nor is it.) Where did you get the peculiar notion that only Russian musicians were affected? From all reports, the sudden ban on instruments in the cabin applied to all touring musicians equally. We've had someone explaining Russian superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians I've never heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc. musicians. No one SAID "superior" - but can anyone who knows anything at all about classical music claim that the Bolshoi and the London Philharmonic are the SAME? Or that, if one wants to hear Hrovstovsky, a recital by Terfel is "just as good"? (For that matter, I don't think people who like popular music would say that a concert by one group was "just as good" as a concert by another, even though both were of similar fame and popularity.) Since we've had a ballet subscription to the Kennedy Center for nearly twenty years, I can only use my experience as a reasonably knowledgeable audience member of ballet to extrapolate to symphony. I really don't think Russian ballet companies are better than the best of American, Danish, British, French, or German ballet companies. Again, no one SAID "better"! Is that any reason you would not want to be allowed the opportunity to see both - without traveling to Russia? Most of my travel to Europe has been to see opera I can't see in this country. That's not to say the Met is not the equal of the top European companies, but they are DIFFERENT - their choice of repertoire includes operas the Met seldom if ever does, and some of their singers never appear in the U.S. I also enjoy the Met, on occasion - one experience does not substitute for the other. (Only an idiot would suggest that it does.) |
#9
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing the superiority of Russian orchestras. Really? When was this? (I do remember pointing out to some asshole or other - "mr travel", I think - that one "accomplished" orchestra is not a substitute for another, nor is it.) Saturday, August 12, Mr. Travel wrote: "What's the difference between qualified people from Russia or the US playing the same music?" That same day you responded, "Don't display your ignorance, moron!" You'll respond to people as you see fit, but I disagree that "don't display your ignorance, moron" doesn't quite mean the same thing as "one accomplished orchestra is not a substitute for another." What if someone else had asked that question? Frankly, I really don't know much about classical music and orchestras, and I would have welcomed learning something had someone answered Mr. Travel's apparently innocuous question. Where did you get the peculiar notion that only Russian musicians were affected? From all reports, the sudden ban on instruments in the cabin applied to all touring musicians equally. Please re-read my post. The topic of bans on instruments in cabins wasn't even mentioned much less Russian musicians being singularly affected. I was trying to find out the answer to the question that has nagged me since Mr. Travel posted it so I started this thread. We've had someone explaining Russian superiority by supplying an analogy referring to musicians I've never heard of. So far, I sincerely haven't been persuaded that Russian musicians are superior to the best of American or British or German, etc. musicians. No one SAID "superior" - but can anyone who knows anything at all about classical music claim that the Bolshoi and the London Philharmonic are the SAME? Or that, if one wants to hear Hrovstovsky, a recital by Terfel is "just as good"? Please, I'm legitimately interested. Simply stating the Bolshoi and London Philharmonic aren't the same isn't helping me. Is the difference interpretation? execution? what? Are there specific recordings I could listen to to hear the difference. Again, no one SAID "better"! Is that any reason you would not want to be allowed the opportunity to see both - without traveling to Russia? My post wasn't about travel. Most of my travel to Europe has been to see opera I can't see in this country. That's not to say the Met is not the equal of the top European companies, but they are DIFFERENT - their choice of repertoire includes operas the Met seldom if ever does, and some of their singers never appear in the U.S. I also enjoy the Met, on occasion - one experience does not substitute for the other. (Only an idiot would suggest that it does.) Then I have an advantage. I've come to prefer abstract ballet to story ballet since a huge portion of story ballet is simply pantomime. The premiere companies performing abstract ballets are US companies and they travel to the Kennedy Center annually. Karen Selwyn |
#10
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Russian Orchestras/Russian Ballets
Karen Selwyn wrote: EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote: We've had Evelyn calling people idiots for not inherently recognizing the superiority of Russian orchestras. Really? When was this? (I do remember pointing out to some asshole or other - "mr travel", I think - that one "accomplished" orchestra is not a substitute for another, nor is it.) Saturday, August 12, Mr. Travel wrote: "What's the difference between qualified people from Russia or the US playing the same music?" That same day you responded, "Don't display your ignorance, moron!" Are you saying his asinine question was NOT moronic? No two equally qualified musicians play the same piece of music the SAME (and no two directors interpret it the same). To think they are interchangeable is to display abysmal ignorance, IMO! |
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