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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
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#63
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
john wrote in message . ..
On 15 Jan 2004 17:41:28 -0800, (Tchiowa) wrote: "DN" wrote in message ... "Tchiowa" wrote in message om... SNIP Oh, and posting crap from "GreenLeft.org", an *EXTREME* left wing Aussie group that openly advocates socialism simply proves how far out in space you are. Hang on a minute sport. Socialism ? Since when is this name tag so bad? Since it's been proven to be destructive. People suffer in the long run. Enlighten me/us on the merits of *your preferred system* and its historical record. Capitalism. More people have benefited in more ways in the long run from capitalism. What are you talking about? Do you own a history book? A few hundred years ago the entire world was in poverty. Half the world is now wealthy beyond the wildest dreams of people then. Western Europe, North America, Japan, Australia, New Zealand: all products of Capitalism. SE Asia has become more capitalistic and most nations are no longer third world. Some are on the verge of being first world. China is a perfect example. Under Communism (which included a Socialist economy) it foundered. It has began allowing Capitalism in some forms in the last decade or so and it's economy is growing rapidly. Millions are leaving poverty behind. There are more governments in Latin America and in the Far East that are RUINED because they listened to the capitalistic pitch from the US government and and Wall Street. These countries were looted by US Banks and US corporations. The core belief in Socialism is "Redistribution of Wealth". The core belief in Capitalism is "Creation of Wealth". Socialism is a zero sum game. To help one person you must hurt another person. Capitalism helps everyone. Some benefit more than others. But even the worst off are better under Capitalism than Socialism. Well, there are more nations who have a socialistic form of government than there are nations with a capitalistic form of government. And the capitalistic countries are far wealthier and their citizens are far better off. |
#64
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
"Tosser" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message om... More people have benefited in more ways in the long run from capitalism. FMD Tell that to Adidas sweat shop workers, you naive, privileged (and probably overfed) parrot. You mean the Adidas sweat shop workers who are making 10 times what they were making before Adidas came to town? |
#65
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
"DN" wrote in message ...
"Tchiowa" wrote in message om... SNIP Enlighten me/us on the merits of *your preferred system* and its historical record. Capitalism. More people have benefited in more ways in the long run from capitalism. You do mean Alan Bond, the Late Skace, the Late Laurie Connell, current money handlers of NAB, AMP., ANSET and the seven year list of hearings to be heard by our Courts of other financial misadventures ? And that leaves Japan, USA, UK etc yet unmentioned, in the list of those who we look up to as proof that capitalism is the way to go? Pull the other leg ;-) I mean Western Europe, North America, Japan, Australia, etc. who have all embraced Capitalism and whose people are all better off than those living in Socialist countries. The core belief in Socialism is "Redistribution of Wealth". The core belief in Capitalism is "Creation of Wealth". Where does land speculation, or for that matter any monetary speculation fit in on this deal of wealth creation? Speculation in Real estate for example, does not create anything other than a bill to be paid by later generations surely? What does that have to do with Capitalism? Do you know what the word means? Socialism is a zero sum game. To help one person you must hurt another person. Capitalism helps everyone. Some benefit more than others. But even the worst off are better under Capitalism than Socialism. If Socialism is a zero game, then based on what was discussed earlier in this post, Capitalism must be a minus (negative) game. Oh, why we are about it, how old is your system? Old enough to have been proven successful. |
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
"Tchiowa" wrote in message om... "DN" wrote in message news:RXLNb.14313$Wa.6875@news- SNIP What does that have to do with Capitalism? Do you know what the word means? Ahhhhhhhhhh; Before answering that, I thought it might be worth looking at Fascist, as spelled out in my Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, which says in part ".... representing a nationalist reaction against socialism ...........etc " Now I could read much into that, but refrain this time round. Now to Capitalism. Loosely described, I thought, by good old Chambers as " the economic system which generates and GIVES power to capitalists". All to simple and unfair a description in the pure sense of the word, to some who practice it. What we argue about and what members on this ng are interested in, is the defence of this *system*. I assert, with a great deal of evidence, that Capitalism in the real and practical World, is a system subject to abuse by the lever pullers and who suck in the political machine, legal system and the defence system to protect them in their national and international dealings. It is far to simple to use a single brush on your canvas "Tchiowa" , to paint any convincing image of what you believe in. SNIP If Socialism is a zero game, then based on what was discussed earlier in this post, Capitalism must be a minus (negative) game. Oh, why we are about it, how old is your system? Old enough to have been proven successful. I'm not so sure about it being old enough to have been proved successful. I don't think you know the answer to the question above. So, I'll prompt you. Shall we start in the year 1305 in France? Or we could move to Boston in the year 1644 ? What about a century later with Dr Adam Smith at the University of Glasgow in the 1760's? Later perhaps; 1883 the year Karl Marx passed away and John Maynard Keynes was born? From those name and place tags, I'm sure you could elicit something about this engine room called Capitalism, the oil called Economics and the continual revolutions throughout history, which, dare I say it, have been defended by army and navy and later air forces. I've no doubt, more blood will be spilt in the defence of 'isms. So, when you put your hand up, or cast a vote, think a little bit about what shaped those things you are so convince about - it is not a simple matter and sometimes means the difference between life and death for some. Including us. DN |
#67
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
Hi "cynara". Interesting post and a good review of the news.
One thing bothers a simple old sod like me, is how the WMD's disappeared over the border to a neighbour and sent forward some place else, (if the truth is known) with out the space spy technology not 'seeing' anything.. I've read with great interest and amazement years ago, how these camera's from space can read a page of a newspaper or a road sign at least, civil works of construction and yet, on several passes each day, nothing was observed. One would easily believe, that surveillance was on high priority, many months before the threats were made to Sadam Hussein, that an invasion would take place. Either the claims made for the space spy technology has been a fizz and highly exaggerated, or some other game is going on we don't know about. What do you think? DN "cynara" wrote in message om... (Emma Knaps) wrote in message . com... (cynara) wrote: Anyway.. the topic of this thread doesn't make sense, because Iraq does not have a deadly arsenal, nor did it have in the past decade. Who says? Do you know something no one else does? Inside info? Do tell, I'm genuinely curious. Do you also believe in fairies, midgets, dragons and wizzards? None of these have been proven to be non-existent either, because you can't prove the non-existence of something but it's pretty safe to say they don't exist. Just like the weapons arsenal in Iraq which nobody has been able to find. They're grim(m) fairytales too. o.com (Emma Knaps) wrote in message . com... (cynara) wrote: Anyway.. the topic of this thread doesn't make sense, because Iraq does not have a deadly arsenal, nor did it have in the past decade. Who says? Do you know something no one else does? Inside info? Do tell, I'm genuinely curious. Do you also believe in fairies, midgets, dragons and wizzards? None of these have been proven to be non-existent either, because you can't prove the non-existence of something but it's pretty safe to say they don't exist. Just like the weapons arsenal in Iraq which nobody has been able to find. They're grim(m) fairytales too. Well, dear, that's properly vague, thank you. I thought you could state some facts and sources to back up your above statement since you seemed so adamant that this is so. I apologize. Apparently I confused your sincere _wish_ above for an obvious statement of irrefutable fact. I do appreciate the comment from the other poster who replied. Now that was some food for thought. Was I the only one who watched the reports during the war about high dangerous chemical readings near a bridge that was coming from the water in the river? I recall they said the evidence was strong that a lot of chemicals had been poured into the river at that point, and that over time any traces would dissipate. That was one instance. Allow me to clarify before going on that this isn't fact, merely my thoughts, that in the months leading up to the war, So-Damn-Insane and his cronies, knowing that the WMD's was the main thrust behind a future war that they had no chance of winning, had more than ample time to send most evidence of their involvement with the chemical weapons abroad to other countries and buried or destroyed the rest as the war was coming to a close so that when it was all over and the dust settled, there would always be the question of whether or not they still had their WMD program going or not. IF this was their long term plan, to divide the world's opinions (which they knew was divided prior to the war starting) as to whether they STILL had those capabilities or not and permanently confuse the innocents who believe the best of even people like him and his cronies, regardless of what FACTS there are that they DID use such weapons on their own people (amongst other horrors), then it looks like they are successful at this point in time. However, I feel that it will take time, years even, to gather ALL the facts about the WMD's and until these FACTS come to light, or as much as the governments will ever let us know, I plan to keep an open mind. Sadly we live in a micro-wave society where people want certifiable results in hand by yesterday and that's too damn bad. Some things, in order to be done right, to be evaluated right, takes t-i-m-e, especially in this situation. I want the facts evaluated properly and from all angles, however long it takes. Inconvenient for making snap decisions about whether it was right or wrong and all that, but that's life, isn't it? For the record, I wanted to wait before going in too. I had hoped we could work through it, but it didn't go the way I wanted and that's too bad. No matter what we hear in the media and think we know, damn few of us had the insight that the governments involved had when they made their decisions. My reversal of feelings about the war began however when the statue of So-Damn-Insane fell and the Iraqi's themselves who, unlike a lot of us with opinions did, lived through that horror and were touched by it every day, and I saw that THESE people were happy, despite the fodder they'd been fed and uncertainty of the future; they rejoiced in the winds of change! When they unfurled the old Iraqi flag that represented the Iraq of educated, bright people not being drug under by the likes of that dictator and his cronies, and how they carried those flags with such pride and joy brought tears to my eyes because their joy touched me. After all they've been through. It's easy for those who stand outside untouched by the true fears and horrors of living like the Iraqi's did, those who are happy in their lives and jobs and have food on the table and know their husbands and sons will be home from work and school and that their daughters have their dignity and their children have a good chance at a fair and good future, to stand in their soft world and smugly make judgement calls and feel righteous about it. Sure! It's easy to sit back and look from outside the reality and think you know and understand it all, but I bet it's a whole other thing to live under what those people lived under for even a week. So when the Iraqi's in majority stand up with pride and carry their flags and rejoice in their chance at a new beginning, well, that says far more to me than all the vague airy-fairy wishes that equates their horrible reality with a figment of imagination on par with fairies and wi_Z_ards. The way the war went down will probably be a question to be discussed for many years (and many threads)into the future regardless of what facts come to light, but the outcome, well, so far, I think the Iraqi's are ahead and that's what counts. It's a hot issue with many, but thanks for allowing me the soapbox stand and now I hand it over to the next... CY |
#68
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
"DN" wrote in message ... One thing bothers a simple old sod like me, is how the WMD's disappeared over the border to a neighbour and sent forward some place else, (if the truth is known) with out the space spy technology not 'seeing' anything.. What? You think the bloody things have Superman's xray vision and can see through truck tarps or into the guts of "petrol tankers" and railway trucks? You think the Iraqis were too dumb to play deception? Go and sit in the corner. GRIN |
#69
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
"Tosser" wrote in message ... SNIP You think the Iraqis were too dumb to play deception? Go and sit in the corner. GRIN Bread and water for a week do? Must be getting older than I think and subject to believing anything ;-) DN |
#70
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How US helped Iraq build deadly arsenal
"Tchiowa" wrote in message om... "Tosser" wrote in message ... "Tchiowa" wrote in message om... More people have benefited in more ways in the long run from capitalism. FMD Tell that to Adidas sweat shop workers, you naive, privileged (and probably overfed) parrot. You mean the Adidas sweat shop workers who are making 10 times what they were making before Adidas came to town? Listen, you naive prat: Capitalism is a game, played by capitalists. You are not one. Neither am I. If we were, we would by making money, not swapping bull**** from behind keyboards. I always find it inexplicable that pawns get so fervent defending the system that exploits them. Time for your reality pills, Einsten! |
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