An evening in Windsor / My first rude Canadian border guard

Not the Karl Orff wrote in message ...
In article ,
127.0.0.1 wrote:



Some legalese determination at least 4-5 years ago. Before that, it
apparently was.

At any rate, see the Dept. of State link
http://travel.state.gov/foreignentry...ps_mexico.html

"PASSPORTS: U.S. citizens who travel to a country where a valid U.S.
passport is not required will need documentary evidence of their U.S.
citizenship and identity. Proof of U.S. citizenship includes an expired
U.S. passport, a certified (original) birth certificate, Certificate of
Naturalization, Certificate of Citizenship, or Report of Birth Abroad of
a Citizen of the United States. To prove identity, a valid driver's
license or government identification card are acceptable provided they
identify you by physical description or photograph. However, for travel
overseas and to facilitate reentry into the U.S., a valid U.S. passport
is the best documentation available and unquestionably proves your U.S.
citizenship."

If you can read above, the VIC can confirm your identity but not prove
U.S. citizenship.

No, the text says "proof of citizenship _includes_...[the list]," the
wording does not specifically _exclude_ a voter registration card.
It's entirely possible that the voter card is not considered proof of
citizenship by the government, but this text is not proof of that
policy.

Also, most voter's cards don't have pictures, so you'd need a photo
ID, such as a driver's license, to confirm identity.

And I have used a voter's card as documentary evidence of US
citizenship in the past, so if the policy has changed, the government
ought to be serving its citizens and informing them of the fact.

In article ,
(Abe Kouris) wrote:

Not the Karl Orff wrote in message
...
In article ,
127.0.0.1 wrote:



Some legalese determination at least 4-5 years ago. Before that, it
apparently was.

At any rate, see the Dept. of State link
http://travel.state.gov/foreignentry...ps_mexico.html

"PASSPORTS: U.S. citizens who travel to a country where a valid U.S.
passport is not required will need documentary evidence of their U.S.
citizenship and identity. Proof of U.S. citizenship includes an expired
U.S. passport, a certified (original) birth certificate, Certificate of
Naturalization, Certificate of Citizenship, or Report of Birth Abroad of
a Citizen of the United States. To prove identity, a valid driver's
license or government identification card are acceptable provided they
identify you by physical description or photograph. However, for travel
overseas and to facilitate reentry into the U.S., a valid U.S. passport
is the best documentation available and unquestionably proves your U.S.
citizenship."

If you can read above, the VIC can confirm your identity but not prove
U.S. citizenship.

No, the text says "proof of citizenship _includes_...[the list]," the
wording does not specifically _exclude_ a voter registration card.
It's entirely possible that the voter card is not considered proof of
citizenship by the government, but this text is not proof of that
policy.

Maybe it's poorly worded but one can say that the list of citizenship
proof includes blah blah. Doesn;t include the VIC, does it?

Also, most voter's cards don't have pictures, so you'd need a photo
ID, such as a driver's license, to confirm identity.

And I have used a voter's card as documentary evidence of US
citizenship in the past, so if the policy has changed, the government
ought to be serving its citizens and informing them of the fact.

I think the above states so.

On 4 May 2004 19:07:58 -0700, (Abe Kouris) wrote:

Ted Elston wrote in message . ..
On 2 May 2004 05:17:51 -0700, (Abe Kouris) wrote:



Shame on you for showing a Government ID Card,you better check your
agency out on that,
As a retired Government Executive , I can safely say that is a
violation of Government Policy and regulation.

In 20 plus years with the Feds, in two agencies, no one ever told me
that. Just to be sure, I spent some time on my agency's intranet
looking over policies and couldn't find anything regarding ID badges.
Not that I don't believe you, but I wouldn't mind getting a reference
to the reg. Is this giverntwide policy, or agency by agency.



Crossing the International Border between Canada and the United States
requires inspection by Immigration & Customs, which will include a
vehicle inspection. You will need personal identification documents,
which differ depending on your citizenship. American and Canadian
citizens need proof of citizenship, such as: a certified birth
certificate PLUS a photo id (such as a driver's license); or a
passport. A child without a passport, or who is not included on a
parent's passport, must have a birth certificate, and if not the child
of the adults accompanying them, a letter from the parents (with
telephone and address contact information) is required. Citizens of
other countries may be required to have a passport and/or visa.


Notice that the wording of the list of acceptable documentation does
not limit it to the the two listed: passport and certified birth
certificate (plus photo ID). Which implies that there might be other
acceptable proofs of citizenship. If that's not the case, then both
governments (which have similarly ambiguous language in their
docurmentation requirements) are not providing adequate guidance to
their citizens.

There's also a question about whether an expired passport is
sufficient documentation. The Candadian border guard told me that it
was, and I have also used an expired passport to gain admittance to
Grenada (and readmittance to the US) on a previous trip. However,
neither the CIC nor the US customs and immigration websites say
anything about expired passports being acceptable documentation. Then
there's a question of how stale the expired passport is. Is my large
aqua passport issued to me in 1971 adequate, or should I use the small
blue one that expired in 1995?

If there truly is a need for tightened border security, why don't both
government stop screwing around and simply require that vistors
provide either (1) passport, valid or expired (if that's really
allowed), (2) certified birth certificate & photo ID, or (3)
naturalization papers, if appropriate, no exceptions? Why put the
border guards into the position of having to make a judgement about
the admissibility of a potential visitor with insufficient
documentation? Sure, that's what they've done for years, but now, why
not require specific unambiguous ID requirements, and let the border
guards spend their time and judgement on more serious issues?

As for me, I'm never going to cross again without a passport or birth
certificate. I learned my lesson.

But the Canadian guard was still unecessarily rude.

Abe

Abe,
You need to check with your security people on use of a Govt. ID.
my experience (38-1/2 years) worth, my agency doesn't even permit the
use of a Govt. ID card exposure outside the agency. IE; must not wear
when leaving facility for lunch etc. ( I still have a active ID and a
retired ID since I do consulting work off and on for the Govt..)

In traveling to Canada, Mexico etc. I have always used the State
Dept. guidelines, never had a problem in either country.
This has also applied to numerous other countries I have traveled to
and from.
In light of 9/11 a lot of things have changed, it better to be on the
safe side then push the envelope.
By the way I'll be making my 4th trip across Canada and it's
territories this fall, so I'll get to check the documentation out
again.

"Abe Kouris" wrote in message
om...
Well, I met my first rude Canadian 'migra man on this trip.

Maybe one canadian officer out of a hundred is rude. Move over up north and
then cross the border going south. You will find out that maybe one american
officer out of a hundred in not rude.


JMC

Well, well. I believe no group has anything approaching a monopoly on politeness
or rudeness.

Every time I cross the border from Canada into Minnesota or North Dakota I have
been treated with complete respect and politeness by the US border control
types. A couple of years ago, just after 9/11 things were really tense at the
Pembina ND crossing and the "boys in black" were really tense and abrupt in
their questioning (at least that was my experience that particular day). I
certainly answered every question to their satisfaction and they looked really
alarmed when (in response to their statement "You can go now") I told them I
couldn't go any further into the USA.

The question was asked by one of the "boys in Black": "Why not"?

My reply was "Because you have the keys to my van." Well, you should have seen
the smiles and heard the laughter!

We have been treated less "politely" and less "professionally" at Detroit, but
then the traffic levels at the Detroit crossing are huge and it must be tiring
for the US border control types to keep on an even keel - especially with the
high exhaust levels!

I believe the US Border control types are pretty good. Mind you, they do enforce
the US laws regarding food coming into the USA, and I have told my family and
kids ahead of time about the meat products, and non-Canadian apples etc.. I have
even asked the US border people various questions for the benefit on my boys who
were in the vehicle. Every time I asked, the US people took the time to explain
what was allowed and why some things were not allowed. Good education for us
all.

It is important for border crossers to recognise the basic fact that Canadian
law is not US law and vice-versa.

Ken
Winnipeg
JMC wrote:

"Abe Kouris" wrote in message
om...
Well, I met my first rude Canadian 'migra man on this trip.

Maybe one canadian officer out of a hundred is rude. Move over up north and
then cross the border going south. You will find out that maybe one american
officer out of a hundred in not rude.

JMC

"Peter L" wrote in message
...
So your documentations are not in order, and this guy dared to ask you
questions? Damn Canadian, let's boycott them!

BTW, I have my share of rude immigration officials the world over. No
country has a monopoly. They all go to the same charm school.

I think it has to do more with working at hectic urban border crossings than
anything else. I've crossed in many rural areas and have never encountered
rudeness on either side. Professionalism, yes, and even acts of kindness
once in a while. I was farting around one day last summer and felt like
going to Quebec for the afternoon and the guy gave me an unsolicited tip on
the best place to eat in Coaticook.

With immigration officials (and cops) the world over it boils down to this:
If you act like a dick you can expect to be hassled.