London-Paris-Alps-Venice-Athens

On 2013-04-02 15:50:25 -0500, Mike Lane said:

Mike Lane wrote on Apr 2, 2013:

Dan Stephenson wrote on Mar 31, 2013:

*Driving the Alps in general is important,
and crossing the Stelvio Pass is the key part of that. *If one drives
through the Alps, then Venice is just waiting there for some visiting,
and it is a very special place (and would have flights to Athens).


I have twice driven from Davos to Merano en route to Venice, hoping to do the

Stelvio pass. The first time was in late May. Many of the Alpine passes were
open by that time, but Stelvio was still closed. The second time was in mid
June. The pass was open but the weather was overcast with occasional rain,
and the cloud base was down to about 3000 ft. There's no point in driving
over an Alpine pass in the cloud - it's dangerous, slow and you can't see
anything, so we aborted again.




Oh, by the way, there's a web-cam showing current conditions on the Stelvio
pass he

http://webcam.popso.it/cm/pages/Serv...IT/IDPagina/42

THANK YOU that is very helpful. I'll have to research history opening
dates for Stelvio.

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

On 2013-04-02 18:20:53 -0500, Jesper Lauridsen said:

On 2013-03-31, Dan Stephenson wrote:
[...]
The anchors are a visit to England to visit Shakespearean sites, and
Athens to see the Parthenon. *Driving the Alps in general is important,
and crossing the Stelvio Pass is the key part of that. *If one drives
through the Alps, then Venice is just waiting there for some visiting,
and it is a very special place (and would have flights to Athens).


Saturday - arrive in London, rent car from the airport, drive to Bath,
visit Avebury, Lacock and Castle Combe along the way, visit Bath rest
of day to work off jet lag

A lot of moving around for someone coming off a transatlantic flight.
But you've been in that situation before and must know your limits.

Yes and I have learned this is he key to fighting jet-lag: stay super
active on the first day.

[...]

Thursday - visit the Louvre, go to top of Eiffel Tower

Any particular reason you're including Paris here? If it's your first
visit, it's _way_ too short, if not why bother?

It's a compromise. Desire to see the Louvre, and to avoid flying from
London, where I understand they have those body scanners, which I avoid.


Friday - go to airport and rent a car, and drive to Davos, Switzerland.
*I will check to confirm I can rent a car and drive it outside the
country.

Renting at airports are usually more expensive than in the city. Also
keep an eye on the included km. 300km/day is standard in Germany, don't
know how it is in France.

Thanks for that input, I will definitely have to research that. Hmm.
Maybe I will resolve on less scope, but I don't know when I will return.


Saturday - cross the Stelvio Pass, drive through the Alps to Venice,
drop car off at airport, arrive at hotel

Here you're going to be hit hard by the one way fee. Returning a rental
car in *another country* is expensive.

I would drop Paris, fly from London to Milano (or similar) and rent the
car there. Should save you a ton of money *and* free up some time for
alpine driving.

Stelvio should be crossed from the north - that's where the hairpins are.

You mean, to descend along the hairpins, or ascend? It's more
west-east in orientation.

Unfortunately the place is crammed with cyclists, so it's hard to build
a good rythm as you have to come to a full stop at every turn.

Or that's how it was last summer. I would like to go back, but it would
have to be at a time of year/day where it's actually possible to drive.

One of our resident Tims is an expert on these passes. Hopefully he's
still around.

Friday - flight to Frankfurt, flight to USA

Sunday - arrive home

Saturday, surely.

Given departure time and time zone shifts, it's Sunday.

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

On 2013-04-03 15:01:23 -0500, Mark Brader said:

It sounds as though "visit" might mean "drive past". In my experience
driving *anywhere* in Britain takes 50-100% longer than you might expect.
I hope the airport is Heathrow, at least, this being on the correct side
of London.

Yes, Heathrow. Most of the day is walking around Bath, and walking is
stimulative.

And I am good with the British driving.

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

On 2013-04-03 15:01:23 -0500, Mark Brader said:


As there are high-speed trains from Paris to Switzerland, it might also
be preferable to do the first part of the trip by train and then switch
to a car at a suitable point.

That is an excellent idea. Experience some train travel, too. Cool!

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

On 2013-04-03 17:35:24 -0500, Graham Harrison said:

Traffic going west out of London on a Saturday morning

Graham thank you for your thoughtful insights, especially on the
shortcuts. I hadn't experienced that kind of congestion, once I was
off the M25, but I need to be mindful.

I recognize the schedule is short - but I have found that there is
usually more one can see in a day, than you might imagine. Distances
in Europe are relatively short, compared to the 10 hours I need to
simply leave my home state in the USA. Anyway, I will give this all
more thought and research more specific route hypotheses, flight
schedules, etc..

--
Dan Stephenson
http://stepheda.com
Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too)

Mark Brader:
As there are high-speed trains from Paris to Switzerland, it might also
be preferable to do the first part of the trip by train and then switch
to a car at a suitable point.

Dan Stephenson:
That is an excellent idea. Experience some train travel, too. Cool!

In that case I'll be a bit more specific. Check out the French railway
map here, which took me a while to locate, by the way:

http://www.rff.fr/IMG/RFF-Carte-rese...07-2012(1).pdf

The double blue lines mark the dedicated high-speed routes (LGVs),
where train speeds of 300 km/h (186 mph) are routine. As you see,
none of them actually reach Switzerland. But the trains (TGVs) run
through from those lines onto other tracks at lower speeds, often
around half of the top speed.

So if you only want to use the train where it saves the most time,
you will get off at a station close to the high-speed lines. But
you may find it more convenient to stay on to a point in Switzerland
or closer to the Swiss border. You can check out trip times on the
the French or the German railway web sites.

By the way, note that both the Eurostar (London to Paris) and TGV
trains require seat reservations and you don't get to choose whether
the seat faces forward or backward. If you turn up at the station
without a reservation, you might not be able to get on the first
train out.

One more thing. The last I heard -- which was a few years ago --
the expressway (freeway, autoroute, autobahn, whatever) system in
Switzerland charged a once-a-year toll implemented as a windshield
sticker ("vignette"). If you rent a car in Switzerland it will
have the vignette. If you rent in France you'll have to buy one
at the border -- but only IF you intend to drive on expressways
in Switzerland. Given your travel intentions, maybe you don't.
If this matters to you, you should check it out.

Here's a more detailed version of the French railway map in case you
or anyone is interested:

http://www.rff.fr/IMG/rff-reseau-2012-vld.pdf
--
Mark Brader "The worst things may happen, including a program
Toronto that works fine on your computer but crashes
on your customer's machine." -- Dan Pop

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Dan Stephenson:
Friday - flight to Frankfurt, flight to USA
Sunday - arrive home

Jesper Lauridsen:
Saturday, surely.

Dan Stephenson:
Given departure time and time zone shifts, it's Sunday.

As I said, most westbound transatlantic flights are daylight trips,
leaving and arriving the same day thanks to the time zones.
I'm curious about the specifics in your case. Do you have a long
trip after reaching your US airport or what?
--
Mark Brader | "'"'Tisn't very easy to tell if a '"' or ''' mark
Toronto | is an opening or closing quote or ditto or prime,"
| said Mark,' said 6'2" d'Artagnan," said Mark Brader.

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:

I would drop Paris, fly from London to Milano (or similar) and rent
the car there.

Why not Zurich then ? It will mean doing most of the trip north of the
Alps, which is possible more scenic.

From Milan otherwise one would have to make SS36 to Lecco
(uninteresting), then to Colico along lake Como (if you take the new
state road, it is mostly in tunnel, for lake views you should do the old
coastal road now declassed to provincial, but is slower), then to
Morbegno, Sondrio and Tirano along the bottom of the Valtellina (a wide
valley, pleasant but not extremely scenic). The best mountain part is
just Tirano to Bormio, and then up to Stelvio.

On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Dan Stephenson wrote:

definitely something I won't do (surely not by car, could be fun by train)

Well I like to do scenic driving

I do not drive at all. But there are very nice scenic trains in
Switzerland. There are mountain buses too. Sometimes I take part to a
contest between public transport fans which consists in finding the
quickest timetable among places ... instructive but hardly realistic.

You do not tell us WHEN you plan that. You should check that Stelvio
(and possibly some other passes) are open. I guess they are
currently still closed by snow.

That is a good point. Living in Texas USA, I am not accustomed to
snowy climes. I'll have to factor that in, and perhaps go a little
later.

Apparently I can't find easily an official place giving details on all
passes (I googled "apertura passi alpini") but it looks like Stelvio is
closed until end May.

So I would ask if there are any glaciers that one can drive to
and walk someone close to the face? That would definitely shape my route.

I am pretty sure of the Morteratsch glacier, which can be reached in a
20-min very easy (flat) walk from the rail station (did it). However
that is on the St.Moritz-Bernina-Tirano route, on the swiss side before
arriving up to Bernina Pass.

You could go down all the way to Poschiavo and Tirano (the way the train
does, you will see the nice spiral viaduct at Brusio), and then up again
to Bormio, but it's likely to be long. Otherwise from somewhere between
Bernina and Poschiavo there is a detour to Livigno which leads you to
Bormio from NW.

The other glacier I heard about but did not see is the Ghiacciaio dei
Forni near S.Caterina Valfurva, that's slightly E from Bormio, and from
there other passes lead east to Trentino (and then Venice).

But if you do both you will skip Stelvio, or have to come back.

Or you could arrange to do Pontresina-Morteratsch-Bernina-Livigno then
turn north back into Switzerland, val Mustair, do Stelvio from the north
to Bormio, then S.Caterina, Forni and continue east from there. But I
guess that would require to split the Davos-Venice step in two days.

From Bormio you could go up yo the lakes of Cancano through the
so-called "scale di Fraele" (Fraele stairs, a rather steep road), but
that's a dead end (no way to drive towards Stelvio). Places are nice.
Just before the ascent there is a curious fortified church
http://www.valtellina.it/info/61/chi...identr o.html
(it was bloody cold in an early june morning).

We did a walk from near the towers of Fraele to Arnoga (which is on the
road from Livigno to Bormio) along the old decauville dirt road. An easy
walk, about 3 hours at constant altitude of 1800 m, rather scenic. I do
not know whether the road is open to cars.

Another nice glacier, easy accessible, is at the Rhone sources in
Switzerland (Rhonegletscher, we got there by postal bus while doing a
train trip Luzern-Goschenen-Andermatt-Oberwald-Brig). Might consider it
for the Paris-Davos-or-wherever stretch.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:23:35 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
wrote:
On Tue, 2 Apr 2013, Jesper Lauridsen wrote:
I would drop Paris, fly from London to Milano (or similar) and
rent
the car there.


Why not Zurich then ? It will mean doing most of the trip north of
the
Alps, which is possible more scenic.

Because then you would be returning a Swiss car in Italy and get the
hefty one-way fee.


From Milan otherwise one would have to make SS36 to Lecco
(uninteresting), then to Colico along lake Como (if you take the
new
state road, it is mostly in tunnel, for lake views you should do
the old
coastal road now declassed to provincial, but is slower), then to
Morbegno, Sondrio and Tirano along the bottom of the Valtellina (a
wide
valley, pleasant but not extremely scenic). The best mountain part
is
just Tirano to Bormio, and then up to Stelvio.

Dan was looking to go to Davos.

Anyway, with the time saved he would have the opportunity to drive
all over Switzerland and other alp parts. Key was to fly to some
place in Italy close to the Alps.