Fire!

memiki wrote:
...
My feelings are that Americans in a foreign country who are publicly
disrespectful of the man holding the Office of the Presidency (i.e.
Dixie Chicks), or on an internationally read public forum, do their
country more harm than good....

You are so wrong about that. It actually shows the world there is still
some intelligence left in the country.

memiki wrote:
...
Nonsense yourself ! I think so doing is unpatriotic, abuses our
precious freedom of speech,

Actually isn't that EXACTLY freedom of speech.

country use remarks such as those you approve of as propaganda.....why
fuel them...! ......why aid them!

Because sometimes they are actually right and your real enemy is in your
administration. Believe me, I am no lover of the islamic terrorists but
your president has harmed your country more than they could have on
their own.

"memiki" schrieb

... Americans in a foreign country who are publicly
disrespectful of the man holding the Office of the Presidency (i.e.
Dixie Chicks), or on an internationally read public forum, do their
country more harm than good

On the contrary!

The world knows about our freedom of speech

"We have it, but we'd better not make use of it"?

Jochen

memiki wrote:
Icono Clast wrote:
[the President] has not been a disappointment to me. He has
surpassed my expectations......... You have no idea how much I
wish he had been an extreme disappointment.

I wouldn't, and think I don't, gloat

Miki replied: You live to gloat..........from Webster's: to
observe or think about something with triumphant and often
malicious satisfaction, gratification, or delight-gloat over an
enemy's misfortune.

Just because the present President of the USA is not my despicable
friend, he's not my enemy although the harm he's doing in
international relations could be so interpreted.

I initiated this thread with an expression of my sadness at the
mis-fortune of others.

Why are you digging up all those old posts? Are they worth having
a second, maybe third time around.?

The post to which you refer was an illustration of a point. Such are
often from the past.

It is my feeling that when an American publicly insults the Office
of the Presidency outside the country, whether it be the Dixie
Chicks on a stage in England or Ike or you on a public forum, harm
is done to the country.

Frank F. Matthews wrote:
Nonsense. It helps the country and its image when outsiders
understand we can recognize our blunders. Blunders like shrub.

memiki wrote:
Nonsense yourself ! I think so doing is unpatriotic, abuses our
precious freedom of speech, and does us much harm.. The enemies
of our country use remarks such as those you approve of as
propaganda.....why fuel them...! ......why aid them!

Dave Smith wrote:
You should make an exception in this case. The man is an idiot and
an embarrassment to the office of the president. The first
mistake was electing that numbskull president, and it was
compounded by electing him a second time. I can understand your
embarrassment but people would probably feel better about the
country if you guys would admit that you screwed up. Immediately
after 9/11 you had the sympathy and support of the western world,
and a lot of the rest of it. Bush has squandered all that good
will.

memiki wrote:
Excuse me.... but what do you mean by "you guys"....;

He means the electorate, Miki.

But neither I nor the Dixie Chicks insulted the Office of the
Presidency. I have the greatest of respect for it, as I'm sure most
people on the planet do, even if held by the likes of the incumbent.

"Why do you have a picture of that Idiot on your wall? I thought you
hated him." "I do. But he's the President!"

There is enough garbage being thrown by other countries without
having sine if our own add to the heap.

Once again, Miki, I must point out that it's incumbent upon us
citizens of the USA to show the world that we don't fear to criticize
our politicians because the First Amendment of our Constitution
protects us should we do so. As I previously said, others'
constitutions have the words but the citizens nevertheless fear to speak.

Hatunen wrote:
memiki wrote
express my disgust at [Icono Clast] referring to the President
as an "idiot" on a forum that is read internationally.

Are you thinking that perhaps the feeling that Bush is an "idiot"
isn't a feeling in other countires?

Frank F. Matthews wrote:
For the most part it is not. Among the kinder such folk it is
more of a conviction.

memiki wrote:
Nonsense yourself ! I think so doing is unpatriotic, abuses our
precious freedom of speech, and does us much harm.. The enemies
of our country use remarks such as those you approve of as
propaganda.....why fuel them...! ......why aid them!

I doubt that "enemies of our country" diffuse the fact of our freedom
to speak. Can you cite an instance?

memiki wrote:
My feelings are that Americans in a foreign country who are
publicly disrespectful of the man holding the Office of the
Presidency (i.e. Dixie Chicks),

I was in three other countries in May. In each our President came
into conversation. I chose my words very carefully and spoke far less
freely than I do here or in UseNet fora. I've been out of the country
many times and have always avoided, sometimes unsuccessfully, saying
what I might have really liked.

or on an internationally read public forum, do their country more
harm than good.........I strongly disagree with Ike's premise
that so doing illustrates our freedom of speech to the world. The
world knows about our freedom of speech

And we know about that of other countries where people fear, as we
proudly do not, to speak.

Martin (I think in France) wrote
[in another forum on another subject]:
I think [the USA is] great country too and I haven't been
brainwashed. It's shame about their politicians . . . I've lived
there.

[Same thread as previous.]
dgs wrote:
Jean O'Boyle wrote:

You are entirely right...You should be proud and loyal to your
country wherever you choose to live. If you are so dissatisfied
with it, then move instead of bashing it.

So Germans should have been proud and loyal to their country in
the 1930s and 1940s? North Koreans should be proud and loyal? My
country, right or wrong?

I don't think so, and I think it's the duty of a nation's citizens
to recognize the good points and strive to improve the weak ones.
HTH. HAND.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"TheNewsGuy(Mike)" wrote:

memiki wrote:
...
Excuse me.... but what do you mean by "you guys"....;

I think he means the idiots who are STILL supporting this outlandishly
corrupt and incompetent administration.

Yeah. What he said.

memiki wrote:

Nonsense yourself ! I think so doing is unpatriotic, abuses our
precious freedom of speech, and does us much harm.. The enemies of our
country use remarks such as those you approve of as propaganda.....why
fuel them...! ......why aid them!


Abuse of freedoms? You government is holding people without charges for
years, but doing so in places like Cuba where they figure American law does
not apply. The have a rendition program to ship people to third countries
where they may be tortured. They are arbitrarily placing people's names on
no fly lists. They lied about WMDs in Iraq to justify an invasion, and did
so against the wishes of the UN Security Council, and that war has seen
close to 4,000 young Americans killed and many times more horribly wounded.
Stifling criticism gives the appearance of mass approval.

I am sure that you have seen lots of news coverage of Moslem protests
against the US and always wonder why you never see them protesting against
the terrorists. It works both ways.

"Icono Clast" wrote
Read The Constitution! It's all protected speech. In fact, the more
offensive it is, the more bigoted it is, the more hateful it is, the
stronger the protection provided by the First Amendment!

Not so. Speech is protected equally without regard to it's level of
offensiveness. Maybe you meant to say the more offensive it is, the greater
the need to protect it -- because it is only when dealing with that and
those we dislike the most that we discover just how committed we the rights
of all.

"memiki" wrote
It is my feeling that when an American publicly insults the Office of
the Presidency outside the country, whether it be the Dixie Chicks on
a stage in England or Ike or you on a public forum, harm is done to
the country. There is enough garbage being thrown by other countries
without having sine if our own add to the heap.

While I see your point re showing respect to the office and what the office
represents, I can assure you that lieing to the American public and the
world at large about the rationale for starting a war, presiding over the
invasion of a sovereign nation, and assorted grand scale evils and malice
doe sfar, far more damage. On a perosnal note, his Adminsitration's
treatment of Canadian citizens deemed "enemey combatants" and "terrorists"
including being held without consular access, bail, access to counsel, being
shipped off to Syria to be tortured for a year, and assorted routine
dismissals of the rule of International Law, the Geneva Convention, the US
Constitution and Bill of Rights, etc, etc. etc. does far more damage than
being called an "Idiot".

"memiki" wrote
Nonsense yourself ! I think so doing is unpatriotic, abuses our
precious freedom of speech, and does us much harm.. The enemies of our
country use remarks such as those you approve of as propaganda.....why
fuel them...! ......why aid them!

Do you know, Miki, that this is the sort of reasoning used to silence
opposition to Hitler in the early 30s? I'm always cautious of anyone who
would seek to silence others on the basis that their speech is "unpatriotic"
or "abuses freedom of speech". The "abuse" is to attempt to silence them
with such words and sentiments. I hope yo see the important distinction, but
I think you won't.

"Dave Smith" wrote in message
...
Abuse of freedoms? You government is holding people without charges for
years, but doing so in places like Cuba where they figure American law
does
not apply.

You might consider reading the news before you comment on it. Everyone at
Gitmo had a hearing to establish that they were enemy combatants before they
were sent there. In every war, enemy combatants are rountinely held until
hostilities cease.

The have a rendition program to ship people to third countries
where they may be tortured.

Egyptians were sent to Egypt, and Saudis to Saudi Arabia, as in they were
sent home.

They are arbitrarily placing people's names on
no fly lists.

Some errors have occurred, but would rather have terrorists riding on
American Airlines with your family?

They lied about WMDs in Iraq to justify an invasion,

Another commonly stated err, but why let facts enter into your rant at this
late date. Every major Intel Agency in the entire World believed that WMDs
were there, and a number of Iraqi General Officers and Mossad continue to
maintain that the WMDs were there and that they were moved as the invation
started.