Flying over US/Canada boarder = going through US customs?

Heard this third hand but here's the story.

This happened within the last month. 2 planes take off from somewhere
in the USA heading for Toronto. Lots of fog in Toronto. Plane A
(origin city unknown) *presumably* crosses the US/CDN boarder and
circles above Toronto (YYZ) for some time before being diverted to
alternate airport. Plane B (originating in Atlanta, carrier unknown
but presumably AC) also circles for some time before being diverted to
alternate airport.

Both planes are diverted to the same alternate airport (CVG -
Cincinatti). Pax on both planes talk to each other because they
mingle at same hotel overnight. They discover that pax on Plane A had
to go through US customs upon arriving at CVG while pax on Plane B did
not.

One pax on Plane B was operating a Garmin GPS unit while on his plane
and at some point several days after the flight had looked at the GPS
data and discovered that his plane had circled (in what seemed to be
perfect circles) above Lake Erie but stayed on the US side of the
boarder (had come maybe within 20 miles of the boarder). This was
presumed to be the reason why pax on Plane B did not have to go
through customs when it diverted to CVG.

Question 1: Has anyone ever heard of diversions from YYZ going as far
away as CVG?

Question 2: Is it common for a plane that originated from the US to
essentially become an "internationally-originating" flight once it
crosses (and then returns to) US airspace, even if the crossing was
only a handfull of miles (and presumably never left the screens of US
ATC) ??

In article , Fly Guy wrote:


Question 2: Is it common for a plane that originated from the US to
essentially become an "internationally-originating" flight once it
crosses (and then returns to) US airspace, even if the crossing was
only a handfull of miles (and presumably never left the screens of US
ATC) ??

Doubt it. Then any floights between Alaska and the lower 48 states
would be international-orignating.

Fly Guy wrote in message ...

Question 2: Is it common for a plane that originated from the US to
essentially become an "internationally-originating" flight once it
crosses (and then returns to) US airspace, even if the crossing was
only a handfull of miles (and presumably never left the screens of US
ATC) ??

I guess there could be an issue over non-US residents on board who had
been identified as having left the country when they boarded the
international flight. On that basis, though, I'm surprised that both
flights weren't screened.

This (if true) would have nothing to do with crossing the BORDER (not
boarder) but it's a function of whether the flight was expected to be
iternational or not.

(Dick Locke) wrote in
om:

Fly Guy wrote in message
...

Question 2: Is it common for a plane that originated from the US to
essentially become an "internationally-originating" flight once it
crosses (and then returns to) US airspace, even if the crossing was
only a handfull of miles (and presumably never left the screens of US
ATC) ??

I guess there could be an issue over non-US residents on board who had
been identified as having left the country when they boarded the
international flight. On that basis, though, I'm surprised that both
flights weren't screened.

This (if true) would have nothing to do with crossing the BORDER (not
boarder) but it's a function of whether the flight was expected to be
iternational or not.

It could also be a case of someone putting the plane into the customs zone
because, it came from Canada and then being corrected so that the other
went into a normal slot.

jcoulter wrote:

plane that originated from the US to essentially become an
"internationally-originating" flight once it crosses (and
then returns to) US airspace ?

I guess there could be an issue over non-US residents on board
who had been identified as having left the country when they
boarded the international flight. On that basis, though, I'm
surprised that both flights weren't screened.

There are no exit-control (passport control) stations at US airports
(for planes departing for Canada) in the same way that they have in
the EU for pax that depart for destinations outside the EU.

In other words, I believe there is no mechanism by which the US gov't
gets any feedback on the identity or transit status of pax that are on
planes heading for Canada.

A plane that takes off from the US and ends up landing in the US
without touching down in any other country (even if that was the
plane's intent) will STILL have a plane-load of pax that

(a) are US citizens who essentially are not returning to the US from a
foreign country, or
(b) are foreign citizens who at some point in the past have already
gone through US customs / immigration.

I am aware, however, that the airlines seem to "compel" US citizens to
fill out a specific US goverment form and hand it to the gate agent
before they board international flights (including flights to
Canada). I am not sure what this form is or what it's purpose is.

This (if true) would have nothing to do with crossing the BORDER
(not boarder) but it's a function of whether the flight was
expected to be iternational or not.

It could also be a case of someone putting the plane into the
customs zone because, it came from Canada and then being
corrected so that the other went into a normal slot.

Seems that the pilot of the second plane deliberatly did not enter CDN
airspace while in the holding pattern because maybe he knew that
chances of diverting to a US airport were high and hence wanted to
avoid customs / immigration. (Note that I don't know the order that
the planes went into holding pattern and diversion to CVG). Would
instructions to go into a holding pattern in US airspace be made by
YYZ ATC or would that be the pilot's discretion?

Question 1: Has anyone ever heard of diversions from YYZ going as far
away as CVG?

No.

Question 2: Is it common for a plane that originated from the US to
essentially become an "internationally-originating" flight once it
crosses (and then returns to) US airspace, even if the crossing was
only a handfull of miles (and presumably never left the screens of US
ATC) ??

No. This whole thing sounds like an urban legend. Flights from BOS
to CHI and the upper midwest routinely fly over southern Ontario and
they never ever turn into international flights.

If it's not, I'm with the suggestion that the flight that came in
international was sent to the wrong place by mistake. Flights from
YYZ and other large Canadian airports are all precleared anyway, so
they're all handled as domestic.

"John R. Levine" wrote in message
...
Question 1: Has anyone ever heard of diversions from YYZ going as far
away as CVG?

No.

I've been fogged out on my way from London to Vancouver and ended up in San
Francisco, 797 miles away. The pilot must've been running on fumes. Seattle
was fogged in too. BA missed out Portland because it has no ground staff or
facilities there to deal with the situation.

YYZ-CVG is only 413 miles.

Kind Regards, Howard

Question 1: Has anyone ever heard of diversions from YYZ going as far
away as CVG?

Yes - see my previous reply about a diversion I had from travelling LHR-YVR
but ended up at SFO.

Question 2: Is it common for a plane that originated from the US to
essentially become an "internationally-originating" flight once it
crosses (and then returns to) US airspace, even if the crossing was
only a handfull of miles (and presumably never left the screens of US
ATC) ??

It may be more to do with whether the airlines had the facilities in the
right terminals at CVG, whether they could physically park the planes at
available gates either due to lack of gates (these and possibly other
flights were unexpected) and/or due to the type of equipment.

Once you're arrived airside at an international gate at CVG it's quite nasty
because like RDU and other airports in the US not only would you have to
clear immigration & customs, you need to re-check your baggage, go through
security even though you're travelling nowhere etc etc.

Kind Regards, Howard

Missed the original post.

Could the difference be not with physical route but rather the actual airline ?

There are (or were) plenty of times when domestic USA flights would overly
Canada and when domestic canadian flights would overfly the USA. Recent
decisions by the Bush regime to force "certain" flights to carry armed guards
may preclude last minute route changes that would allow a YVR-YYZ flight to
take advantage of better winds south of the border.

But in the past, mere overflight over canada/USA didn't make the flight un-sterile.

This may be more an issue with management. Once a flight diverts to airport X,
the airline ground staff have to negitiate with airport X authorities for use
of their airport, gates, fuel etc, especially if that airline doesn't have a
presence there.

It could be just as simple as one airline having gained access to a domestic
gate while the other airline could only manage use of the less used intl gates.

Note that most flights from canada to USA are precleared and land at docmestic
gates. Don't know what sort of controls exist to ensure that when a plane
lands at a domestic gate, they have proof that it was precleared by US customs/immigration.

Fly Guy wrote in message ...
jcoulter wrote:


I guess there could be an issue over non-US residents on board
who had been identified as having left the country when they
boarded the international flight. On that basis, though, I'm
surprised that both flights weren't screened.

There are no exit-control (passport control) stations at US airports
(for planes departing for Canada) in the same way that they have in
the EU for pax that depart for destinations outside the EU.

In other words, I believe there is no mechanism by which the US gov't
gets any feedback on the identity or transit status of pax that are on
planes heading for Canada.



I haven't flown US-Canada for 2-3 years but I think that exit controls
are the same for Canada as for any other country. That is, they are
weak but do exist. The airline check-in agent asks for proof of
citizenship and for any other documents that turn out to be needed
based on country of citizenship. A non-US resident will most likely
have a passport from which the agent enters data into the airline's
record system. There's also a stub of some kind in the visitor's
passport that the check in person takes and forwards to some
government dark hole if they remember.

Bottom line, there is a record of nationality and immigration status
of the passengers and I think this is the most likely explanation.
This is probably a frequent-enough happening that there's a standard
procedure for it.