BA jet in dramatic near miss over USA, 6 hurt, continues to London

"London...we have a problem" wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...766&ito =1490
BA jet seconds from disaster in US 'near collision'

A packed British Airways jet was just seconds from disaster after
plummeting out of the sky in a dramatic near miss over America, it has
emerged.

Usual journalistic claptrap.

"TCAS does its job" doesn't make such good copy does it ?

Graham

Eeyore schrieb:

Usual journalistic claptrap.

"TCAS does its job" doesn't make such good copy does it ?

For TCAS see
http://www.humanfactors.uiuc.edu/Rep.../nuneslaur.pdf

Well, the air controller did not know the TCAS instructions and gave
contradictory commands.

Regards, ULF

Ulf Kutzner wrote:

Eeyore schrieb:

Usual journalistic claptrap.

"TCAS does its job" doesn't make such good copy does it ?

For TCAS see
http://www.humanfactors.uiuc.edu/Rep.../nuneslaur.pdf

Well, the air controller did not know the TCAS instructions and gave
contradictory commands.

Not a problen. In such cases you ignore ATC. That is what you're taught to do.
Or you end up dead like those flights that collided in Swiss airspace.

Graham

Eeyore wrote:

Ulf Kutzner wrote:

Eeyore schrieb:

Usual journalistic claptrap.

"TCAS does its job" doesn't make such good copy does it ?

Well, the air controller did not know the TCAS instructions and gave
contradictory commands.

Not a problen. In such cases you ignore ATC. That is what you're
taught to do. Or you end up dead like those flights that collided in
Swiss airspace.

The collision was in German airspace, under the control of a Swiss agency.
Further, it was not how the Russian crew was taught. The following is a
quote from the German accident report (translated):

"... the operating procedures for the [Russian] flight crew specifically
required compliance with ATC at all times. It was not Russian "culture." It
was poor, incorrect or absent training."

James Robinson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ulf Kutzner wrote:
Eeyore schrieb:

Usual journalistic claptrap.

"TCAS does its job" doesn't make such good copy does it ?

Well, the air controller did not know the TCAS instructions and gave
contradictory commands.

Not a problen. In such cases you ignore ATC. That is what you're
taught to do. Or you end up dead like those flights that collided in
Swiss airspace.

The collision was in German airspace, under the control of a Swiss agency.
Further, it was not how the Russian crew was taught. The following is a
quote from the German accident report (translated):

"... the operating procedures for the [Russian] flight crew specifically
required compliance with ATC at all times. It was not Russian "culture." It
was poor, incorrect or absent training."

If so, then why the supposed discussion about it as I heard ?

KInd of makes TCAS redundant if you ignore it !

Graham

Eeyore wrote:


"London...we have a problem" wrote:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...766&ito =1490
BA jet seconds from disaster in US 'near collision'

A packed British Airways jet was just seconds from disaster after
plummeting out of the sky in a dramatic near miss over America, it has
emerged.


Usual journalistic claptrap.

"TCAS does its job" doesn't make such good copy does it ?

Graham


No kidding. Gotta love that "plummeting out of the sky" part, like it
wasn't under the control of the pilot?

"James Robinson" wrote...

Well, the air controller did not know the TCAS instructions and gave
contradictory commands.

Not a problen. In such cases you ignore ATC. That is what you're
taught to do. Or you end up dead like those flights that collided in
Swiss airspace.

The collision was in German airspace, under the control of a Swiss agency.
Further, it was not how the Russian crew was taught.

The standards are the same worldwide: TCAS RA takes precedence over ATC
clearance. If the Russians weren't trained correctly, they shouldn't have
been flying outside of Russia.

John Weiss schrieb:

Well, the air controller did not know the TCAS instructions and gave
contradictory commands.

Not a problen. In such cases you ignore ATC. That is what you're
taught to do. Or you end up dead like those flights that collided in
Swiss airspace.

The collision was in German airspace, under the control of a Swiss agency.
Further, it was not how the Russian crew was taught.


The standards are the same worldwide: TCAS RA takes precedence over ATC
clearance. If the Russians weren't trained correctly, they shouldn't have
been flying outside of Russia.


Hmm.

Maybe I don't understand

'3. ATC clearances will always take precedence within controlled
airspace except if otherwise dictated by emergencies.' in

http://www.iata.org/WHIP/_Files/WgId...WEF27Nov03.pdf
(well, that isn't Europe).

What exactly is 'dictated'?

Regards, ULF

Eeyore wrote:
James Robinson wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ulf Kutzner wrote:
Eeyore schrieb:

Usual journalistic claptrap.

"TCAS does its job" doesn't make such good copy does it ?

Well, the air controller did not know the TCAS instructions and gave
contradictory commands.

Not a problen. In such cases you ignore ATC. That is what you're
taught to do. Or you end up dead like those flights that collided in
Swiss airspace.

The collision was in German airspace, under the control of a Swiss agency.
Further, it was not how the Russian crew was taught. The following is a
quote from the German accident report (translated):

"... the operating procedures for the [Russian] flight crew specifically
required compliance with ATC at all times. It was not Russian "culture." It
was poor, incorrect or absent training."

If so, then why the supposed discussion about it as I heard ?

KInd of makes TCAS redundant if you ignore it !


You have seconds to decide whether to trust a human or some software

Wouldn't surprise me if under stress some people cooose the fomer over
the latter