Latest on the Burma VISA?

In article ,
says...

You are free to think and act so. We are free to think different. There
has never been a boycott which had any positive impact on the lives of the
people. The opposite is true. Any boycott will harm the people first, not
the government.

What was your position on the South Africa boycott? Did you play Sun City?

The difference is that South Africa is basically an industrialised
society linked to world markets, so a boycott does hurt. But Myanmar is
a relatively isolated society with a rural economy, considerably less
sensitive to an economic boycott.
The generals can more or less hang on for ever, regardless of US efforts
to topple their government. But the simple people in Myanmar are badly
hurt by the boycott.

In addition, tourism is not a big economic factor in Myanmar, but it
helps the local people. Just to make an example, with the money we paid
to our driver he finally had enough funds to marry his girlfriend.
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Austria, Prague,
Budapest and Portugal

In article ,
says...

You are free to think and act so. We are free to think different. There
has never been a boycott which had any positive impact on the lives of the
people. The opposite is true. Any boycott will harm the people first, not
the government.

What was your position on the South Africa boycott? Did you play Sun City?

The difference is that South Africa is basically an industrialised
society linked to world markets, so a boycott does hurt. But Myanmar is
a relatively isolated society with a rural economy, considerably less
sensitive to an economic boycott.
The generals can more or less hang on for ever, regardless of US efforts
to topple their government. But the simple people in Myanmar are badly
hurt by the boycott.

In addition, tourism is not a big economic factor in Myanmar, but it
helps the local people. Just to make an example, with the money we paid
to our driver he finally had enough funds to marry his girlfriend.
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Austria, Prague,
Budapest and Portugal

4) Tourism projects are causing forced relocation. It is well known that
5,000 villagers from Pagan were forcibly relocated by SLORC a few years
ago to keep them away from tourists.


Many, including some of my friends, were evicted in the middle of the night at
gunpoint, sent to the "myothit"("new city") some distance away, which was only
a dusty patch in the middle of nowhere. Of course they were not compensated.
Bagan, as the government now calls it, is a sterile "museum" like Ayutthaya in
Thailand, with no inhabitants except the few militarily "connected".
One aspect of emptying the town that is never mentioned: the rubble of ancient
pagodas is excellent habitat for a number of highly venomous snakes such as the
Russel's viper. Their numbers could be increasing.

4) Tourism projects are causing forced relocation. It is well known that
5,000 villagers from Pagan were forcibly relocated by SLORC a few years
ago to keep them away from tourists.


Many, including some of my friends, were evicted in the middle of the night at
gunpoint, sent to the "myothit"("new city") some distance away, which was only
a dusty patch in the middle of nowhere. Of course they were not compensated.
Bagan, as the government now calls it, is a sterile "museum" like Ayutthaya in
Thailand, with no inhabitants except the few militarily "connected".
One aspect of emptying the town that is never mentioned: the rubble of ancient
pagodas is excellent habitat for a number of highly venomous snakes such as the
Russel's viper. Their numbers could be increasing.

"Alfred Molon" kirjoitti viestissä
...
In article ,
says...

You are free to think and act so. We are free to think different.
There
has never been a boycott which had any positive impact on the lives of
the
people. The opposite is true. Any boycott will harm the people first,
not
the government.

What was your position on the South Africa boycott? Did you play Sun
City?

The difference is that South Africa is basically an industrialised
society linked to world markets, so a boycott does hurt. But Myanmar is
a relatively isolated society with a rural economy, considerably less
sensitive to an economic boycott.
The generals can more or less hang on for ever, regardless of US efforts
to topple their government. But the simple people in Myanmar are badly
hurt by the boycott.

As far as Asian countries consider the burden of Burmese folks an "internal
affair" there is little tools around to oust the generals from outside
Burma.

"Alfred Molon" kirjoitti viestissä
...
In article ,
says...

You are free to think and act so. We are free to think different.
There
has never been a boycott which had any positive impact on the lives of
the
people. The opposite is true. Any boycott will harm the people first,
not
the government.

What was your position on the South Africa boycott? Did you play Sun
City?

The difference is that South Africa is basically an industrialised
society linked to world markets, so a boycott does hurt. But Myanmar is
a relatively isolated society with a rural economy, considerably less
sensitive to an economic boycott.
The generals can more or less hang on for ever, regardless of US efforts
to topple their government. But the simple people in Myanmar are badly
hurt by the boycott.

As far as Asian countries consider the burden of Burmese folks an "internal
affair" there is little tools around to oust the generals from outside
Burma.

Thomas F. Unke wrote:

What's different about Burma is the fact that the abuses are linked to the
tourist industry.

This is what the boycott groups claim and it is basically not
true. Myanmar (not Burma) is a free market society where the "tourist"
industry is mostly private.

What is your evidence for saying it's not true. No one's disputing that
the tourist industry is largely privately owned when it comes to small
hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc but are the places where the alleged
incidents have taken place privately owned? The airports, the railways,
the Royal Palace in Mandalay, the land surrounding Bagan? I very much
doubt it. If you believe that these reports are lies then what do you
believe are the motives of the people who invent them?

"Clearing villages" happens in many SE Asian countries, from the
Philippines to Indonesia to Thailand. Myanmar is no exception to
that. This is of course no excuse, but one should know that the forced
clearings of slums in Bangkok or Manila are not much better or
different.

And you feel perfectly well in Bangkok, I suppose?

Clearing slums occurs all over the world. Were these rural viillages in
Bagan actually slums? I can well believe that powerful property
developers in countries such as Thailand can buy the political influence
to get land cleared. The issue is the degree of coercian, violence and
threat used. If you know of an incident in Bangkok where this was done
to create a haven for tourists then please send details.

This newsgroup is about travelling in Asia and we are free to discuss
this without interference from politically correct people. Please take
your "morals" to the appropriate place where they belong.

Tourism and morality are inextricably linked and clearly you are not
free to discuss your 'cheap holidays in the sun' without interference
from 'politically correct people'. This is what you might wish but alas
......

You just don't want the rickshaw driver, hotel owner or waiter in a
pub to benefit from it. You want them to live in greater poverty?

No, of course no one who advocates sanctions or boycotts actually wants
that but in the short term it may well happen.

You claim quite a nonsense here. Go to Myanmar instead of listening to
these boycott people. This country is much more than forced labour and
what the groups always claim here.

Most of the people who belong to these boycott groups are probably
Burmese nationals in exile and I suspect they know alot more about the
positive day-to-day aspects of life in Burma than you do. No one is
claiming that all there is to Burma is forced labour and misery. If
there was it wouldn't attract tourists such as yourself who are looking
for a good time and we wouldn't be having this debate. It's precisely
because there is so much more to Burma that it is a highly attractive
travel destination.

You are free to think and act so. We are free to think
different. There has never been a boycott which had any positive
impact on the lives of the people. The opposite is true. Any boycott
will harm the people first, not the government.

I think that people in South Africa might disagree with you.

If there are Burmese opposition groups who question the accuracy of
these reports of tourism-related abuses then I'd very much be interested
to hear about them. If any Burmese exile groups (who are therefore free
to speak openly) do disagree with the official NLD position then please
make them known to us.

Nigel

Thomas F. Unke wrote:

What's different about Burma is the fact that the abuses are linked to the
tourist industry.

This is what the boycott groups claim and it is basically not
true. Myanmar (not Burma) is a free market society where the "tourist"
industry is mostly private.

What is your evidence for saying it's not true. No one's disputing that
the tourist industry is largely privately owned when it comes to small
hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc but are the places where the alleged
incidents have taken place privately owned? The airports, the railways,
the Royal Palace in Mandalay, the land surrounding Bagan? I very much
doubt it. If you believe that these reports are lies then what do you
believe are the motives of the people who invent them?

"Clearing villages" happens in many SE Asian countries, from the
Philippines to Indonesia to Thailand. Myanmar is no exception to
that. This is of course no excuse, but one should know that the forced
clearings of slums in Bangkok or Manila are not much better or
different.

And you feel perfectly well in Bangkok, I suppose?

Clearing slums occurs all over the world. Were these rural viillages in
Bagan actually slums? I can well believe that powerful property
developers in countries such as Thailand can buy the political influence
to get land cleared. The issue is the degree of coercian, violence and
threat used. If you know of an incident in Bangkok where this was done
to create a haven for tourists then please send details.

This newsgroup is about travelling in Asia and we are free to discuss
this without interference from politically correct people. Please take
your "morals" to the appropriate place where they belong.

Tourism and morality are inextricably linked and clearly you are not
free to discuss your 'cheap holidays in the sun' without interference
from 'politically correct people'. This is what you might wish but alas
......

You just don't want the rickshaw driver, hotel owner or waiter in a
pub to benefit from it. You want them to live in greater poverty?

No, of course no one who advocates sanctions or boycotts actually wants
that but in the short term it may well happen.

You claim quite a nonsense here. Go to Myanmar instead of listening to
these boycott people. This country is much more than forced labour and
what the groups always claim here.

Most of the people who belong to these boycott groups are probably
Burmese nationals in exile and I suspect they know alot more about the
positive day-to-day aspects of life in Burma than you do. No one is
claiming that all there is to Burma is forced labour and misery. If
there was it wouldn't attract tourists such as yourself who are looking
for a good time and we wouldn't be having this debate. It's precisely
because there is so much more to Burma that it is a highly attractive
travel destination.

You are free to think and act so. We are free to think
different. There has never been a boycott which had any positive
impact on the lives of the people. The opposite is true. Any boycott
will harm the people first, not the government.

I think that people in South Africa might disagree with you.

If there are Burmese opposition groups who question the accuracy of
these reports of tourism-related abuses then I'd very much be interested
to hear about them. If any Burmese exile groups (who are therefore free
to speak openly) do disagree with the official NLD position then please
make them known to us.

Nigel

Talk like this only hurt people, it will not bring good things, it
will only bring bad things. Instead of talking like this and defaming
people, why not you help them by yourself? Or maybe helping people is
not your goal at all?

Nigel Bruce wrote in message ...
However a quick search on Google suggests that either
the allegations are true or the poor government of Burma
is the victim of an incredibly well-organised and
well-orchestrated campaign of misinformation involving
almost every news organisation and human rights group in the world.

Considering the choices, I voted for the later.

News organization and human rights groups belong to 'them'. The same
goes for Google.

But frankly, I would later go on with my choice, so I will vote my own
option.

Here's my option.

Chances are, even if the allegations are indeed true or half true,
then these things are also done by 'them', through 'their' pawns. Who
do you think owned the government of Burma? 'Them'!

'They' did these actions through 'their' pawns, 'they' use their other
pawns to defame the previous pawns, then 'they' use the other OTHER
pawns to do things by using the reason that these are done to prevent
the actions that were previously done by 'their' pawns, actions that
were ordered by 'them'.

Oh... When it's about doing these through proxies, 'they' are the
experts.

It's useless to join any freedom fighter group / terrorist group /
human rights group / etc (created by 'them') to fight against
oppression (created by 'them'). Freedom fighters, terrorists, human
rights activists, and so on are the same, they are nothing more but
pawns used to fight each other.

You will be treated as nothing more but a pawn to play with. The
object is not resource, land, redevelopment, and so on. The object is
your own misery, confusion, false action (thinking that you're doing
the thing you want when it's actually the opposite), and so on.

To quote someone, "Do not resist an evil person."

But the news media and human rights group probably would have accuse
him of human rights violation.