Bilingual in Europe versus USA

On 26/08/06 11:14, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" wrote:

The simple proof of this is that Americans routinely ask each other,
"So, where are you from?" If accents were that distinctive, they
wouldn't have to ask.


Sometimes is it is fun guessing.

The geographical distribution is made confusing by the fact
that the western accent is broadly distributed geographically.
Half the country speaks a western dialect, and people from
that area can not be placed.

However, MacNeil and Cran's book on "Do you speak American"
has a map showing the geographical variation of the 16 dialects they
identify. Certainly, if a person ways "dawg" for "dog"
you know he ain't using a western dialect. When Kennedy
said "Cuber" for Cuba, you knew were he was from. Use of
some words places people but virtually knowbody reading
this post would know what a "dingbatter" is. Clinton
had a regional accent, as did Carter (or should one say
"Cahtah" forgetting those nasty "rs") although most
people would could not say which state they are from
by their accent.

Americans, however, understand one another's English for the
most part so there is no problem in communication. On the
other hand a French speaking Canadian from northern rural
Quebec might not understand somebody from Marseille. I know
this for a fact in one case where a Frenchman from Saint Malo
acted as a translator, he having lived in Quebec for most of
his life.

The main problem with American accents it that some people think
that others are stupid if they speak differently. The prejudice
against southerners is well known and social class is assigned
on the basis of how one speaks English in America. Two well
known California politicians, born in Texas, took special
training to get rid of their Texas accents. Willy Brown and
Jesse Unruh. Some New Yorkers have done the same thing.
The upward mobile have to speak correctly.

On 26/08/06 11:21, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" wrote:

Indeed, Irish and Scots accents sound very similar to me, enough to
make confusion between them easy.


Have your hearing checked.

Can you tell the difference between the accent from Marseille
and Bordeaux? Can you tell the difference from a kid
from the Parisian banlieue populist areas and Paris?

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:28:54 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:

There is supposedly a distinction between the Irish accent of Belfast
and that of Dublin, but I don't notice it unless specific differences
are pointed out to me.

I'll leave it to non-Irish people to tell you that their perceptions
differ from yours.

As an Englishman, I find it easy to differentiate the northern and
southern accents in the island of Ireland, but am not familiar enough
to differentiate (say) DerryLondonderry* from Belfast or Galway from
Cork.

Before I moved to Bristol, I would have been able to listen to
someone's accent and identify it as West Country, but now I live here,
I can tell Bristolian from Somerset, for example.

(*aka "Stroke City")





Keith, Bristol, UK

Email: usenet[dot]20[dot]keefy[at]spamgourmet[dot]com

This is a sp*mtrap, but I will get your mail!

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:

The voice of the person who recorded the electronic bits of sound for
the phone directory is an example of a neutral voice.

In most cases when someone is talking about "accent free speech" they
really mean their own accent which they don't perceive as unusual and
therefore aren't aware of.

You and I seem to be talking on two levels. I'm talking about a
practical business decision by a company trying to disseminate
information to a lot of speakers of American English who, themselves,
have a variety of accents.

The people who hired this individual don't care whether or not *she*
thinks she doesn't have an accent. They only care that the listeners who
hear her saying a telephone number will be able to understand her speech
and not be waylaid by issues of accent. Thus, their search for a neutral
accent.

She'll certainly be identifiable as a North American, as opposed to
speaker of British, Aussie or Indian English. Linguists will be able to
nail down the exact version of American English she speaks. Even the
supposedly "neutral" accent is identifiable to a region

I'm not disputing what you've written, but I'm surprised you are having
trouble understanding the practical realities of a business decision
made to serve a particular market in contrast to an academic linguistic
analysis.

Karen Selwyn

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
...
Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:

Karen Selwyn wrote in
news:lnNHg.12975$ok5.10072@dukeread01:

Hatunen wrote:

What is a "neutral" accent?

One in which all traces of the place origin of the speaker have
disappeared.

That is impossible.

That depends on the criteria you set. My accent reveals to
anglophones that I am Irish. Even Irish people cannot identify my
place of origin /within Ireland/ from my speech. I think I could claim
it to be "Irish neutral".

In most cases when someone is talking about "accent free speech" they
really mean their own accent which they don't perceive as unusual and
therefore aren't aware of.

I agree. Sometimes I hear people with accents that I consider to be
very strong making claims of that type,

In another post, I
mentioned AMERICAN TONGUES. There's a segment in this documentary about
the woman whose voice is used in 411 information phone calls. She was
selected because her voice showed no evidence of regional
pronunciation.

She'll certainly be identifiable as a North American, as opposed to
speaker of British, Aussie or Indian English. Linguists will be able to
nail down the exact version of American English she speaks. Even the
supposedly "neutral" accent is identifiable to a region

That's similar to the point I make above. But if it needs a very high
level of professional expertise to place a person, then you might as
well class the accent as neutral for all practical purposes.

There are other markers as well as accent that help in placing a
person. Vocabulary varies from place to place.


A good friend of mine was born in the Netherlands but brought up speaking
Fries.
He had to learn Dutch on entering school.
His family then emigrated to New Jersey, USA and he had to learn English.
Serving in the US Navy he met a Scots girl in Glasgow and settled there.
You should hear his accent!!!!!!!

Surreyman

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
...

How quickly?

Almost immediately -- after one or two sentences.


I've never yet heard an Irishman manage to string two sentences together
........ :-))

Surreyman

Hatunen wrote:

Is this on TV or what?

I first saw this on the PBS program POV (Point of View) decades ago. I
was so entranced that the next time it was repeated, I video taped it. I
don't know whether or not PBS is still showing the documentary.

The Introduction to American Engish course at the University of Tampere
put the entire transcript on the internet. Here's a URL:

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/tongues.html

Of course, simply reading the transcript deprives you of the pleasure of
hearing the accents. You can listen to a 19-second sound bite of the
accent at Tangier Island, Virginia by going to the web site for the
distributor of the documentary, Center for New American Media. This site
also supplies the ordering information for the documentary.

CNAM: http://www.cnam.com/flash/index.html

(Incidentally, my web search took me to one of the sites that sells
research papers. Apparently, the documentary is so popular that this
company felt there was money to made in writing and selling a paper
about the documentary. All I can say is the quality of sample on the
site is so simple-minded -- it's nothing more than summary -- that I'm
afraid for the state of education if any student feels this writing will
meet a teacher's expectations!)

(Now, I'm really in despair about the state of education! I just went to
a second research paper site which is selling a marvel of critical
thinking called, "An Analyzation of the Film American Tongues." It
contains such trenchant statements as: "It's interesting to see how in
one country there can be so many accents and so many different ways of
saying expressions." In addition, will someone please reassure me that
the word "analysis" has not disappeared from the English language!?!)

Karen Selwyn

Hatunen wrote:

Actually, that means she would have a blended Midwestern accent.

I just read the section of the transcript which focuses on the the
directory assistance operator, Ramona Lenny. It doesn't say where she is
from.

Here's what she has to say about why she was hired: "They were looking
for generic speech. Or some people call it homogenized speech. Speech
that would float in any part of the country and didn’t sound like it
came from somewhere in particular, perhaps the voice from nowhere."

Incidentally, here's a different URL for the transcript from AMERICAN
TOMGUES. The first URL only includes a partial transcript. This is the
complete transcript: http://www.cnam.com/downloads/amt_ts.html

Karen Selwyn

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:19:10 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Wolfgang Schwanke writes:

Only if you find unetymological spellings an improvement.

I prefer consistent and phonetic spelling, given a choice.

Even American English is no closer than British in that respect.
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On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:54:17 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Ian F. writes:

Ok, I stand corrected. But it's not OK in *my* English!

Then don't use it.

They actually do.
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