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Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 16th, 2012, 10:26 PM posted to rec.travel.cruises
number6
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Posts: 781
Default Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy

On Jan 16, 12:59*pm, (Gadget World) wrote:
The hit may not be that big.

The cruise contract limits liability to $75,000 per person for injuries
and loss of life.

Naturally the suits will be for far greater figures plus personal
property.

Each cabin will be searched for property and it will be returned to the
occupants of that cabin.
Naturally, most clothing and personal property will be ruined or
pilfered

For all those who sold their stock or shorted it this morning Congrats.


It was down about 2.5 % at the start and stayed there more or less the
entire day ... that's about the same drop as Bank of America had
today ... and they had no ships sink ... of course they ARE a sinking
ship though ...


Interesting calculation about that Carnival stock drop ... The Market
Cap dropped almost exactly what the value of the ship was ...

  #23  
Old January 17th, 2012, 01:11 AM posted to rec.travel.cruises
Tom K
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Posts: 2,578
Default Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy

On 1/15/12 3:41 PM, number6 wrote:

If it was human error- unacceptable


IMO - That is the only acceptable cause ... I could accept some idiot
screw up much easier than a systematic cause or errors in the
navigational charts ...


It's probably a combination of things. But not the charts.

We put our trust that things like SOLAS regulations will help provide
safety. But perhaps that trust is misplaced. Here's what SOLAS says:

---------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter II-1 Construction Subdivision and stability, machinery and
electrical installations.

The subdivision of passenger ships into watertight compartments so that
after damage to its hull, a vessel will remain afloat and stable.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously that didn't happen in this case. The ship did NOT remain
afloat and stable. As it should have.

But thinking about it, they crash test dozens of cars to verigy that
they can withstand crashes of certain velocities. But do they test
ships the same way? Of course not.

And even if the design was initially a correctly working design on the
Carnival Destiny hull (which it might not have been), with the extra
decks and extra length added to the initial Destiny hull as it evolved,
is it still safe? Obviously something was seriously wrong. The damage,
while severe looking, was actually over a rather small area in the aft
of the ship. It's not like 75% of the hull was breached. It looks like
less than 10% of one side. Maybe 1-2 water tight compartments.

To me, that damage doesn't look major.

Given the SOLAS requirement, that ship shouldn't have sank.

I think there must be some major design issue.

Like if there were no water tight compartments in that area.
Like if the doors didn't close if the area had them.
Like if there was no redundant electrical system and the primary (or
only) system was compromised with the damage.
Like if the system didn't work automatically, and a crew member had to
close the water tight doors, and didn't do it.

There is a LOT of explaining to do. By a lot of people. And you wonder
if it will just get covered up. Or if an organization like the NTSB or
maybe the US Coast Guard will be allowed to really figure out what went
wrong. There are a lot of ships since Destiny that have been built on
that platform. We need proof that there isn't a major design flaw in
that fleet of ships.

--Tom
  #24  
Old January 17th, 2012, 03:36 AM posted to rec.travel.cruises
Charles[_1_]
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Posts: 3,112
Default Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy

In article , Tom K
wrote:

To me, that damage doesn't look major.

Given the SOLAS requirement, that ship shouldn't have sank.


The damage is major. I don't see how you can look at the pictures
available and see otherwise.

As far as SOLAS...no ship is unsinkable. You can't write a regulation
that will prevent a ship from sinking. What they are requiring is that
the ship stay afloat long enough to evacuate the passengers and crew.

--
Charles
  #25  
Old January 17th, 2012, 11:59 AM posted to rec.travel.cruises
Kurt Ullman
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Posts: 1,653
Default Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy

In article ,
Charles wrote:

In article , Tom K
wrote:

To me, that damage doesn't look major.

Given the SOLAS requirement, that ship shouldn't have sank.


The damage is major. I don't see how you can look at the pictures
available and see otherwise.

As far as SOLAS...no ship is unsinkable. You can't write a regulation
that will prevent a ship from sinking. What they are requiring is that
the ship stay afloat long enough to evacuate the passengers and crew.


And if they hadn't screwed around for an hour or so before starting
evacuation, they might have been able to do that. Even as it sits, a
completely botched response and yet the worst the death toll can be is
~40 out of 4000+.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz
  #26  
Old January 17th, 2012, 03:44 PM posted to rec.travel.cruises
Gadget World
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Posts: 274
Default Costa Concordia water tight comparments

Unfortunately, the damage to the ship's hull affected many of the water
tight compartments.


The ship can be righted by use of inflatable balloons, but this may not
be practical with the damaged hull.

The ship could be towed to Genoa and repaired at Mariotti or towed to
Fincanterri near Venice, where it was built, even on it's side.
Regardless of how the ship is towed further damage will be incurred in
the movement of the ship, but
a complete renovation of the entire ship's FF&E
will be required, along with a name change to perhaps: "COSTA LOT".

Gadget




  #27  
Old January 17th, 2012, 05:01 PM posted to rec.travel.cruises
number6
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Posts: 781
Default Costa Concordia water tight comparments

On Jan 17, 9:44*am, (Gadget World) wrote:
Regardless of how the ship is towed further damage will be incurred in
the movement of the ship, but
a complete renovation of the entire ship's FF&E
will be required, along with a name change to perhaps: *"COSTA LOT".


hehe ...
  #28  
Old January 17th, 2012, 08:26 PM posted to rec.travel.cruises
-hh
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Posts: 420
Default Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy

On Jan 16, 9:36*pm, Charles wrote:
In article , Tom K

wrote:
To me, that damage doesn't look major.


Given the SOLAS requirement, that ship shouldn't have sank.


The damage is major. I don't see how you can look at the pictures
available and see otherwise.


As per news reports, the hole in the hull on the port side is 48.8m
(160ft) wide, whereas the ship is 290m (950ft), which works out to
roughly 1/6th the ship's length. Major, sure, but fatal?


As far as SOLAS...no ship is unsinkable. You can't write a regulation
that will prevent a ship from sinking. What they are requiring is that
the ship stay afloat long enough to evacuate the passengers and crew.


Which appears that in this case also failed - - the ship was grounded,
which resulted in it not completely sinking, thereby buying time &
opportunity for passengers to self-rescue by swimming ashore. Had
this been in deepwater, the death count would have clearly been far
far higher.

Similarly, other obvious failures were in the crew's poor response to
the emergency, as well as downright bad dissemination of information.
There might also be some questioning of having the planned emergency
drill scheduled for the next day instead of promptly ("same day"),
before passengers have had their first overnight. I've not been on
that many cruises, but IIRC, 100% of them so far have had their
lifeboat drill on the day-of-boarding.

Finally, this is probably more of a warship thing, but perhaps this
incident will cause some reconsideration: this ship's design
apparently either didn't have -- or the crew didn't know how to employ
-- controlled counterflooding of compartments to keep the ship's list
from becoming excessive and going over.

All of these factors can be addressed ... but it costs money. Time
will tell us what the industry's priorities really are.



-hh
  #29  
Old January 17th, 2012, 11:33 PM posted to rec.travel.cruises
Tom K
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Posts: 2,578
Default Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy

On 1/16/12 9:36 PM, Charles wrote:

In , Tom K
wrote:

To me, that damage doesn't look major.

Given the SOLAS requirement, that ship shouldn't have sank.


The damage is major. I don't see how you can look at the pictures
available and see otherwise.



From one article:

"It's possible, with small areas of damage, to prefabricate a [steel]
patch and put it into place," says Dawn Gorman, editor of the magazine,
International Tug & OSV.

It says SMALL AREAS of damage.


  #30  
Old January 17th, 2012, 11:40 PM posted to rec.travel.cruises
Go Fig
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Posts: 454
Default Costa Concordia taking on water off of Italy

Very sad... and completely avoidable.

This Captain is toast... the 'fly-by' was coordinated on Facebook for
the benefit of the Head Waiter's family... who live on the island.

I'll tell you what... I sure like that Italian Coast Guard
Commander... didn't mix words at all:


The audio was first made available on the website of Corriere della
Sera.

Capt. Gregorio De Falco: This is De Falco speaking from Livorno. Am I
speaking with the commander?

Capt. Francesco Schettino: Yes. Good evening, Cmdr. De Falco.

De Falco: Please tell me your name.

Schettino: I'm Cmdr. Schettino, commander.

De Falco: Schettino? Listen, Schettino. There are people trapped on
board. Now you go with your boat under the prow on the starboard side.
There is a pilot ladder. You will climb that ladder and go on board.
You go on board and then you will tell me how many people there are.
Is that clear? I'm recording this conversation, Cmdr. Schettino...

Schettino: Commander, let me tell you one thing...

De Falco: Speak up! Put your hand in front of the microphone and speak
more loudly, is that clear?

Schettino: In this moment, the boat is tipping...

De Falco: I understand that. Listen, there are people that are coming
down the pilot ladder of the prow. You go up that pilot ladder, get on
that ship and tell me how many people are still on board. And what
they need. Is that clear? You need to tell me if there are children,
women or people in need of assistance. And tell me the exact number of
each of these categories. Is that clear? Listen, Schettino, that you
saved yourself from the sea, but I am going to...really do something
bad to you...I am going to make you pay for this. Go on board,
[expletive]!

Schettino: Commander, please...

De Falco: No, please. You now get up and go on board. They are telling
me that on board there are still...

Schettino: I am here with the rescue boats, I am here, I am not going
anywhere, I am here...

De Falco: What are you doing, commander?

Schettino: I am here to coordinate the rescue...

De Falco: What are you coordinating there? Go on board! Coordinate the
rescue from aboard the ship. Are you refusing?

Schettino: No, I am not refusing.

De Falco: "Are you refusing to go aboard, commander? Can you tell me
the reason why you are not going?

Schettino: I am not going because the other lifeboat is stopped.

De Falco: You go aboard. It is an order. Don't make any more excuses.
You have declared "abandon ship." Now I am in charge. You go on board!
Is that clear? Do you hear me? Go, and call me when you are aboard. My
air rescue crew is there.

Schettino: Where are your rescuers?

De Falco: My air rescue is on the prow. Go. There are already bodies,
Schettino.

Schettino: How many bodies are there?

De Falco: I don't know. I have heard of one. You are the one who has
to tell me how many there are. Christ.

Schettino: But do you realize it is dark and here we can't see
anything...

De Falco: And so what? You want go home, Schettino? It is dark and you
want to go home? Get on that prow of the boat using the pilot ladder
and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what their
needs are. Now!

Schettino: ...I am with my second in command.

De Falco: So both of you go up then ... You and your second go on
board now. Is that clear?

Schettino: Commander, I want to go on board, but it is simply that the
other boat here ... there are other rescuers. It has stopped and is
waiting...

De Falco: It has been an hour that you have been telling me the same
thing. Now, go on board. Go on board! And then tell me immediately how
many people there are there.

Schettino: OK, commander

De Falco: Go, immediately!

jay
 




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