Canada question

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 20:33:33 GMT, "TNSAF"
wrote:

Hatunen wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:11:22 -0400, "Claude Marcil"
wrote:

"Hatunen" wrote in message
...

But if I follow this thread correctly, it appears that pride
consists largely in not being American.

Now that you mention it, perhaps a lot of Canadians and possibly
people from other countries dont want to be mistaken for Americans.

They dont want to suffer the anti-american trend resulting from the
major mistakes of the USA in their foreign policy lately.

But wouldn't it be a bit sad if that ws the only thing they claim
to be proud of?

Indeed if were true, but anyone who has done their research would know of
Canada's great contributions to the world... medical break throughs,

Yeah, well, Canadians don't seem to mention that.

her sacrifices during times of war (least we forget that during WWII Canada
(with her relatively small populous) had the 3rd. largest Air Force and 4th.
largest Navy in the world.

Everytime Americans mention their sacrifices in the two world
wars they get yelled at about how long ago that was.

Her almost unprecedented contributions to UN
peace keeping missions. Canada was the first in North America to build an
airliner and second in the world by only a few weeks.

I'd love to see the citation on that, including the definition of
"airliner".

We are the home of the worlds 3th largest aircraft builder.

Only Canadians would brag about being third.

We are respected in most corners of the
world. Every country has its crosses to bear, ours might be our neglected
military, but we can fix that by pumping some needed money and resources
that way. Because we share so much in common with our friends to the south
we often find it necessary to remind ourselves what it is that makes us
different!

And what is it?


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:15:24 -0400, "Claude Marcil"
wrote:


[...]

Does it mean that we're eager to specify and clarify that WE are not
americans ( citizens of USA ) ? Yes

I rest my case.

After all, I presume that americans that fly their national flag do it to
show their pride of being americans and to make sure that they are not
mistaken for any other nationality.

The only nationality Americans are likely to be mistaken for is
Canadian.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen ) writes:
"TNSAF" wrote:

Canada was the first in North America to build an
airliner and second in the world by only a few weeks.

I'd love to see the citation on that, including the definition of
"airliner".

I think TNSAF meant to say "jet airliner".
Do a Google search for "Avro Jetliner".

Tom Box or
Toronto, ON, Canada

I hope you're wrong.

In my mind, a USA citizen would make sure to be recongnized as an american
wherever he goes.

The day that the opposite happens might be beginning of american citizens
noticing that there is a ( real ) world existing outside their boundaries.

I, personnaly, hope that this day is near but I'm dreaming.

M Bush has managed, in my opinion, to convince the vast majority of its
citizens to support him in wanting to make USA the world dominator,
whatever the price,
whatever the number of lost lives including americans,
whatever the lying and cheating necessary to convince his fellow
citizens.

If I was an american, I would start asking myself
WHY are we so much hated around the world,
WHY do we feel that most terrorists organisations are aiming at us.

Empires have existed in the past. History has shown that they dominated,
they sinned, they took their power for granted and, eventually, they all
disapeared.

Are we beginning to see the same thing happening again ?

Sincerely, I hope not.

Because of our tight knit relation to USA, Canada would undoubtoubly
suffer as much from this as the true responsible.

M Bush invokes all the time the protection of America ( USA ) by GOD.

Personnally, I hope that on top of

God protecting America,

God helps americans seeing where their leader is taking them.


"Hatunen" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 21:15:24 -0400, "Claude Marcil"
wrote:


[...]

Does it mean that we're eager to specify and clarify that WE are not
americans ( citizens of USA ) ? Yes

I rest my case.

After all, I presume that americans that fly their national flag do it
to
show their pride of being americans and to make sure that they are not
mistaken for any other nationality.

The only nationality Americans are likely to be mistaken for is
Canadian.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *


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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:59:48 -0600, Hatunen wrote:


Her almost unprecedented contributions to UN
peace keeping missions. Canada was the first in North America to build an
airliner and second in the world by only a few weeks.

I'd love to see the citation on that, including the definition of
"airliner".

Dave:
The writer should have said First jet powered airliner in North
America and second in the world.

The A.V Roe company of Ontario produced a jet airliner ( The AVRO C102
) in 1949 that set all speed and altitude records of the day.

Here is a quote from an article in one of your American newspapers --
the Rochester Democrat and Chronical Jan 12th. 1951

"A commercial jet aircraft, built in Canada, has smashed all
American speed records for aircraft of that type by flying from
Chicago to New York in 1 hr and 42 minutes. Besides hurtling at 459
miles per hour, the airliner set a new altitude record for transports.
This should give our nation a good healthful kick in its placidity.
The fact that our massive but underpopulated good neighbour to the
north has a mechanical product that licks anything of ours is just
what the doctor ordered for our overdeveloped ego."

Of course the A V Roe company also built The Avro Arrow which was by
far the most advanced jet fighter of it's time. It was scrapped after
its test flights mainly for political reasons, one of which was the
Americans were so embarrased that it outperformed their new fighter,
that your president put pressure on Canda to scrap it in return for
increased American defense spending in Canada.
Why th eUS didn't scrap their fighter and sratrt producing the AVRO is
a mystery. Probably because of that American unwillingness to admit
that they are not the best.

When the AVRO program was scrapped in 1958 many of the engineers and
other scientists moved south to become the core of the new American
NASA program.

see http://www.avroarrow.org/ or any one of a number of other sites
for info.

lid wrote:

Of course the A V Roe company also built The Avro Arrow which was by
far the most advanced jet fighter of it's time. It was scrapped after
its test flights mainly for political reasons, one of which was the
Americans were so embarrased that it outperformed their new fighter,
that your president put pressure on Canda to scrap it in return for
increased American defense spending in Canada.
Why th eUS didn't scrap their fighter and sratrt producing the AVRO is
a mystery. Probably because of that American unwillingness to admit
that they are not the best.

Oh, that tired old myth again. Canadians as the victims. The Americans as the
big bad villans.

CBC loves this stuff.

A few salient paragraphs reviewing the miniseries and the 'facts' it offered.
from:

http://adforce.imgis.com/?adiframe|2.0|300|104238|1|1|ADFORCE;

(Snip)


"Time Magazine

January 27, 1997

Arrow That Doesn't Fly:

The CBC's mini-series about the interceptor that wasn't is good to look at but
ungrounded in facts

By Michael Bliss

(Michael Bliss is a professor of history at the University of Toronto)

History it isn't. Billed as "Dramatic fiction inspired by real events, the
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's mini-series The Arrow, aired Jan 12 and
13, plays fast and loose with the facts. The upshot is a drama that never
soars a s high as the ill- starred jet interceptor itself. For aviation buffs,
engineers and romantic Canadian nationalists, Arrow can be hot stuff. Others
may not feel the need for four hours of mythologising.

Reality is more like this: as the cold war developed in the 1940's and 1950's,
Ottawa thought a job-rich domestic aircraft industry could be built on defence
production. When A.V. Roe Co. Ltd (Avro), based near Toronto, managed to build
a serviceable jet fighter, the CF-100., the government decided to fund
development of an advanced supersonic interceptor, the CF-105 Arrow. At the
behest of nationalist ministers, especially C.D. Howe, the Liberal government
of Louis St. Laurent poured hundreds of millions into the project.

By 1957. the Arrow was behind schedule, costs had soared, no other countries
had offered to buy the plan and Avro's president, Crawford Gordon, was sinking
into alcoholic irresponsibility. The new Conservative government of John
Diefenbaker warned Avro repeatedly that the Arrow program was in trouble. In
February, 1959, it canned the project. The company laid off 14,000 workers.
Many engineers left for good jobs in the U.S., some in space program. All
existing Arrows were cut for scrap. Legend has it one survived.

A greater myth sprang up: that the world's finest aircraft, which would have
rocked Canada into global aerospace leadership had shot down by bumbling fools
acting out an American-driven agenda. Thus a national dream died and Canada
began its decent into mediocrity. "The Arrow is a wonderful success!,"
exclaims Sara Botsford playing a scarlet-haired (and imaginary) engineer, Kate
O'Hare. "In this country that's the problem,"replies gorgeous journalist June
Callwood (Mauralea Austin). "The Arrow is too much of a success.''

Never mind the real Arrow was never fully flight-tested, never flew with its
intended engine or electronics or weapons system. Never mind that Avro's track
record was horrible and the company was a mess. Never mind that the Liberals
had given up on the Arrow but postponed cancellation after an election they
expected to win. Based in part on Greig Stewart's 1988 book, Shutting Down the
National Dream, the series buys every scrap of Arrow mythology and adds more.


(Snip)


I cut here to prevent quoting an entire article, even though it's short.

I've seen lots of online threads about this and (yawn) don't want to start
anything. However, to leave the mythologizing alone is to pretend there isn't
another side to this story. Bliss offers this other, imo realistic
down-to-earth side. I give it to you in the interests of fairness. Nex

lid wrote in
:

Of course the A V Roe company also built The Avro Arrow which was
by far the most advanced jet fighter of it's time. It was scrapped
after its test flights mainly for political reasons, one of which
was the Americans were so embarrased that it outperformed their
new fighter, that your president put pressure on Canda to scrap it
in return for increased American defense spending in Canada.
Why th eUS didn't scrap their fighter and sratrt producing the
AVRO is a mystery. Probably because of that American unwillingness
to admit that they are not the best.

I'm too lazy to go find cites, but as an aviation buff:

IIRC, the US actually offered to buy Arrows and give them back to
Canada. The goal would have been to keep the Arrow team together --
collective skill-sets are easily lost and hard to regain, and having
a good design team in a friendly country next door never hurts.

It's also not like it was the BEST AIRPLANE EVER!!! If you look at
the projected performance specs, you'll find that they're quite
similar to those of the McDonnell F-4 (which entered service in IIRC
1961). But the Arrow was a dedicated interceptor, where the F-4 was
a dramatically multirole plane that spent much of its time being a
better bomber than a B-17 was.

--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 02:21:23 +0000 (UTC), Alan Pollock
wrote:

wrote:

Of course the A V Roe company also built The Avro Arrow which was by
far the most advanced jet fighter of it's time. It was scrapped after
its test flights mainly for political reasons, one of which was the
Americans were so embarrased that it outperformed their new fighter,
that your president put pressure on Canda to scrap it in return for
increased American defense spending in Canada.
Why th eUS didn't scrap their fighter and sratrt producing the AVRO is
a mystery. Probably because of that American unwillingness to admit
that they are not the best.

Oh, that tired old myth again. Canadians as the victims. The Americans as the
big bad villans.

CBC loves this stuff.

A few salient paragraphs reviewing the miniseries and the 'facts' it offered.
from:

;

(Snip)


"Time Magazine

January 27, 1997

Arrow That Doesn't Fly:

The CBC's mini-series about the interceptor that wasn't is good to look at but
ungrounded in facts

By Michael Bliss

(Michael Bliss is a professor of history at the University of Toronto)

History it isn't. Billed as "Dramatic fiction inspired by real events, the
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's mini-series The Arrow, aired Jan 12 and
13, plays fast and loose with the facts. The upshot is a drama that never
soars a s high as the ill- starred jet interceptor itself. For aviation buffs,
engineers and romantic Canadian nationalists, Arrow can be hot stuff. Others
may not feel the need for four hours of mythologising.

Reality is more like this: as the cold war developed in the 1940's and 1950's,
Ottawa thought a job-rich domestic aircraft industry could be built on defence
production. When A.V. Roe Co. Ltd (Avro), based near Toronto, managed to build
a serviceable jet fighter, the CF-100., the government decided to fund
development of an advanced supersonic interceptor, the CF-105 Arrow. At the
behest of nationalist ministers, especially C.D. Howe, the Liberal government
of Louis St. Laurent poured hundreds of millions into the project.

By 1957. the Arrow was behind schedule, costs had soared, no other countries
had offered to buy the plan and Avro's president, Crawford Gordon, was sinking
into alcoholic irresponsibility. The new Conservative government of John
Diefenbaker warned Avro repeatedly that the Arrow program was in trouble. In
February, 1959, it canned the project. The company laid off 14,000 workers.
Many engineers left for good jobs in the U.S., some in space program. All
existing Arrows were cut for scrap. Legend has it one survived.

A greater myth sprang up: that the world's finest aircraft, which would have
rocked Canada into global aerospace leadership had shot down by bumbling fools
acting out an American-driven agenda. Thus a national dream died and Canada
began its decent into mediocrity. "The Arrow is a wonderful success!,"
exclaims Sara Botsford playing a scarlet-haired (and imaginary) engineer, Kate
O'Hare. "In this country that's the problem,"replies gorgeous journalist June
Callwood (Mauralea Austin). "The Arrow is too much of a success.''

Never mind the real Arrow was never fully flight-tested, never flew with its
intended engine or electronics or weapons system. Never mind that Avro's track
record was horrible and the company was a mess. Never mind that the Liberals
had given up on the Arrow but postponed cancellation after an election they
expected to win. Based in part on Greig Stewart's 1988 book, Shutting Down the
National Dream, the series buys every scrap of Arrow mythology and adds more.

Nex:

No doubt the CBC drama was full of fiction and no doubt that there
were some problems with the AVRO but the track record was actually
quite amazing and certainly not terrible. Don't think anyone took
the CBC movie as fact. However Michael Bliss can't be considered as an
expert on the AVRO either. No doubt he has ver high standing as a
Canadian historian but his main field is Medical history and tody he
seems to be as much a commercial journalist as an "eminent" historian.

Another "eminent" Toronto historian ( Dr. Desmond Morton ) also wrote
a book on the Avro that is still in bookstores today and it is full of
major flaws - that he finally admitted to. Actually had one of his
students do the research.

All indications are that the AVRO was a superior supersonic jet
fighter and that the US military convinced our Prime minister that it
was not needed and that the weapon of choice should be the American
made Bomarc missle. Diefenbaker fell for it it and in return got a
promise that the US would defend Canada's borders with their new
misssle. Of course the Bomarc was a total flop and never completed.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:14:26 -0400, "Claude Marcil"
wrote:


Empires have existed in the past. History has shown that they dominated,
they sinned, they took their power for granted and, eventually, they all
disapeared.

As Col Potter would say, "Horse puckey!"

A lot of countries that didn't have empires also disapppeared.

And a lot that did have empires still exist today, albeit without
empires. France, Spain, The Netherlands, England, etc.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Jim Battista wrote:


I'm too lazy to go find cites, but as an aviation buff:

IIRC, the US actually offered to buy Arrows and give them back to
Canada. The goal would have been to keep the Arrow team together --
collective skill-sets are easily lost and hard to regain, and having
a good design team in a friendly country next door never hurts.

They did??? They were not even interested in the Orenda engines. The
Arrow was a threat to the American aircraft industry and pressure was
put on the government to get rid of the Arrow and to take obsolete
American interceptors and the BOMARC missile system, much to the
financial gain of the US.