Your vote on a common global language

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 14:47:21 +0100, wrote:

On 14 Dec 2004 21:33:10 +0800, Lee Sau Dan
wrote:

"Icono" == Icono Clast writes:

Icono An excerpt from
Icono http://geocities.com/iconoc/Articles/Vigns01.html at the
Icono site at Right in the sig:

Icono A woman at a Bolognese Chinese restaurant, whose Italian
Icono sounded more fluent than her Cantonese, asked me the
Icono English for ``anitra". She said ``Duck-uh". I said
Icono ``Duck". She said ``Duck-a". I said ``No, Duck". She said
Icono ``Ducka". I said ``No! Duck!" She said ``Duck . . ."
Icono ``STOP!"

I know an Italian professor, who pronounces "is" as "isa" even in
formal presentations in English.

Don't they all do it?

Morea ora lessa.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:51:23 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
wrote in
news rec.travel.europe,sci.lang:

[...]

I note Dineen (1927) translates "Séimiugad" (dots over m,g,d) as
"lenition (aspiration)", and the Caighdeán Oifigiúil (1958) gives us
"aspiration" for "séimhiú". O Dónaill (1977) seems to try to roll
things back, making no mention of aspiration, and giving "4. /Ling:/
Lenition".

A few more data points: Mícheál Ó Siadhail's _Learning
Irish_ (1988) uses 'lenition' and doesn't mention
'aspiration'; the same is true of the 1993 _Teach Yourself
Gaelic_. The 1977 _Teach Yourself Gaelic_, on the other
hand, uses 'aspiration', as does the 1961 _Teach Yourself
Irish_.

[...]

But popular usage is not so easily changed.

Ain't that the truth!

Brian

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:51:23 +0000, Padraig Breathnach
wrote in
news rec.travel.europe,sci.lang:

[...]

I note Dineen (1927) translates "Séimiugad" (dots over m,g,d) as
"lenition (aspiration)", and the Caighdeán Oifigiúil (1958) gives us
"aspiration" for "séimhiú". O Dónaill (1977) seems to try to roll
things back, making no mention of aspiration, and giving "4. /Ling:/
Lenition".

A few more data points: Mícheál Ó Siadhail's _Learning
Irish_ (1988) uses 'lenition' and doesn't mention
'aspiration'; the same is true of the 1993 _Teach Yourself
Gaelic_. The 1977 _Teach Yourself Gaelic_, on the other
hand, uses 'aspiration', as does the 1961 _Teach Yourself
Irish_.

[...]

But popular usage is not so easily changed.

Ain't that the truth!

Brian

[I thought that I had posted this yesterday but it has failed to
appear. My apologies if it appears again.]

I have tried to learn Mandarin.

Many people here in England regard me as good at languages but that
says more about the typical language ability of the English than my
abilities. I don't know if I am more able than the average here but I
am certainly more interested, particularly in non-European languages.

I set out once to learn Mandarin as an example of a language completely
different to those of Europe. Mandarin has a couple of advantages for
this purpose. Vast numbers of people speak it so if I was successful,
I would have greatly increased the number of people in the world that I
could speak to. Availability of courses and learning material is much
better than many other non-European languages. Cantonese would have
been attractive since there are more speakers here but courses and good
books are rare.

I am not very good at Mandarin. This is due to lack of time and effort
and maybe due to lack of ability.

But my problems are not in comprehension or pronunciation. If I know a
word then I usually recognise it when it is said to me. And if I say a
word, it is normally understood. I expect that I sound terrible but
the Chinese that I have practised with are too polite to say so. There
are European languages, e.g. Danish, in which I find this much harder.


I think that the difficulty of the tones is imagined or exaggerated.
They may not be obvious to a European and they are probably hard
without a teacher but they are certainly not impossible.

I find that some features of Mandarin actually make comprehension
easier. The main problem that I have with Danish is identifying word
boundaries. This is not a problem in Mandarin.

My biggest problem is learning enough vocabulary to allow useful
conversations. This is usually my problem in any foreign language.
Here Mandarin is harder than most European languages (for me) but this
is simply because it is not related to English and shares few words.

An advantage of Mandarin is that you can impress people with very
simple conversations. My French and Spanish are much better than my
Mandarin but I rarely impress people with them. In contrast I have
caused considerable surprise and amusement by understanding a few bits
of Mandarin or making some simple utterances. "Ni hao" is not enough
but you don't have to go much further.

Some Europeans seem to have a mental block against non-European
languages. I have met Europeans who speak several European languages
very well (much better than me) yet they struggle greatly with Mandarin
and other Far Eastern languages. I find the lack of marked plurals and
tenses advantages, they get hung up on how a language can work without
them. =20

Se=E1n O'Leathl=F3bhair

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
...
I am not fully up on the Brythonic aspiration rules, but I know that
they exist.

Welsh has three mutations, called soft, nasal, and aspirate.

The soft mutation makes voiceless consonants voiced and voiced stops into
voiced fricatives. The nasal mutation replaces a non-nasal stop, voiced or
voiceless, with its nasal equivalent (Welsh has a distinction between voiced
and voiceless nasals here). The aspirate mutation changed voiceless stops
into voiceless fricatives - this may well have been, in origin, a change to
aspirated voicelss stops, and have become fricates later.

In sum:

letter soft nasal aspirate
p b mh ph (pronounced like English 'f')
t d nh th (pronounced like in English
'thick')
c g ngh ch (pronounced like in German
'dach')
b f m
d dd n
g 0* ng
m f
ll l
rh r

* the 'g' disappears in a soft mutation; it likely originally went to a
velar fricative.

The spelling 'f' represents English 'v', and 'dd' English 'th' as in 'then'.
The consonanst represented by 'll' and 'rh' are unvoiced equivalents of 'l'
and 'r' respectively. The 'h' after a nasal means that the nasal is
pronounced without voice.

Neeraj Mathur

"Padraig Breathnach" wrote in message
...
I am not fully up on the Brythonic aspiration rules, but I know that
they exist.

Welsh has three mutations, called soft, nasal, and aspirate.

The soft mutation makes voiceless consonants voiced and voiced stops into
voiced fricatives. The nasal mutation replaces a non-nasal stop, voiced or
voiceless, with its nasal equivalent (Welsh has a distinction between voiced
and voiceless nasals here). The aspirate mutation changed voiceless stops
into voiceless fricatives - this may well have been, in origin, a change to
aspirated voicelss stops, and have become fricates later.

In sum:

letter soft nasal aspirate
p b mh ph (pronounced like English 'f')
t d nh th (pronounced like in English
'thick')
c g ngh ch (pronounced like in German
'dach')
b f m
d dd n
g 0* ng
m f
ll l
rh r

* the 'g' disappears in a soft mutation; it likely originally went to a
velar fricative.

The spelling 'f' represents English 'v', and 'dd' English 'th' as in 'then'.
The consonanst represented by 'll' and 'rh' are unvoiced equivalents of 'l'
and 'r' respectively. The 'h' after a nasal means that the nasal is
pronounced without voice.

Neeraj Mathur

Hatunen wrote:

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 22:07:50 -0700, William Penrose
wrote:


On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:34:56 +0100, Alan Hope
wrote:


William Penrose goes:


But it is more than likely that there will never be a universal
language.

Criminals, for example, have since forever used a form of slang
restricted only to their circle, to allow them to communicate with
each other under the noses of the rozzers without being detected.

Also true for doctors, lawyers, and teenagers.


Ah, yes. Who remembers "It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy
in snide"?

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *


I read it recently, in the past year.

It was from a short story set in San Francisco, at or slightly before
1900. A western, I believe. Referring to the language used by the
criminal element of SF.



The author was ..... crap, can't remember. Elucidate me.

J.

Say not the Struggle nought Availeth wrote:

Hatunen wrote:

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 22:07:50 -0700, William Penrose
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:34:56 +0100, Alan Hope
wrote:

William Penrose goes:

But it is more than likely that there will never be a universal
language.

Criminals, for example, have since forever used a form of slang
restricted only to their circle, to allow them to communicate with
each other under the noses of the rozzers without being detected.

Also true for doctors, lawyers, and teenagers.

Ah, yes. Who remembers "It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy
in snide"?

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

I read it recently, in the past year.

It was from a short story set in San Francisco, at or slightly before
1900. A western, I believe. Referring to the language used by the
criminal element of SF.

The author was ..... crap, can't remember. Elucidate me.

.... one of Mad Magazine's favorite pieces of flouncy

Possible origin:
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/archives/mediev-l/melcher/2002/09/msg00178.html

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and
the terminally curious http://www.internet-resources.com/writers

Say not the Struggle nought Availeth wrote:

Hatunen wrote:

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 22:07:50 -0700, William Penrose
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:34:56 +0100, Alan Hope
wrote:

William Penrose goes:

But it is more than likely that there will never be a universal
language.

Criminals, for example, have since forever used a form of slang
restricted only to their circle, to allow them to communicate with
each other under the noses of the rozzers without being detected.

Also true for doctors, lawyers, and teenagers.

Ah, yes. Who remembers "It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy
in snide"?

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

I read it recently, in the past year.

It was from a short story set in San Francisco, at or slightly before
1900. A western, I believe. Referring to the language used by the
criminal element of SF.

The author was ..... crap, can't remember. Elucidate me.

.... one of Mad Magazine's favorite pieces of flouncy

Possible origin:
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/archives/mediev-l/melcher/2002/09/msg00178.html

--
Sal

Ye olde swarm of links: thousands of links for writers, researchers and
the terminally curious http://www.internet-resources.com/writers