International Drivers License?

Tim Challenger wrote:

On 27 Jul 2004 09:47:16 -0700, Sufaud wrote:

It just occurred to me that German is a national, or rather a
regional, language of Italy, so fie on them anyway for their
hypocrisy:

What hypocrisy?

I think that the idea was that since German is a regional language of
Italy a license in German should not need a translation. Either that or
Italy should give up their German speaking areas.

Tim Challenger wrote:

On 27 Jul 2004 09:47:16 -0700, Sufaud wrote:

It just occurred to me that German is a national, or rather a
regional, language of Italy, so fie on them anyway for their
hypocrisy:

What hypocrisy?

I think that the idea was that since German is a regional language of
Italy a license in German should not need a translation. Either that or
Italy should give up their German speaking areas.

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 13:52:20 GMT, Frank F. Matthews wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:

On 27 Jul 2004 09:47:16 -0700, Sufaud wrote:

It just occurred to me that German is a national, or rather a
regional, language of Italy, so fie on them anyway for their
hypocrisy:

What hypocrisy?

I think that the idea was that since German is a regional language of
Italy a license in German should not need a translation. Either that or
Italy should give up their German speaking areas.

That's what I thought he meant, but it didn't make sense to me as Italy
doesn't require a translation of any other EU or EEA countries' DLs models.

(French and Slovenian are also regional languages in Italy as well, btw).

--
Tim C.

Italy requires all drivers whose licenses are not in the standard EU
format to carry an official translation of the license and to produce
it on demand.

That's not quite true, though is it? Italy is obliged to accept ALL EU
nations DL models, even old ones, as long as they are still valid.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/...faq/002_en.htm

"Will old driving licence models still be recognised ?

Yes, the old driving licence models have to be mutually recognised by the
Member States.
Despite Directive 91/439/EEC having established a principle of mutual
recognition of licences, the periods of validity of driving licences are
not harmonised by Community legislation. This means that a very large
number of different driving licences (more than 80 models) are still valid
and circulating in the countries of the Union and of the European Economic
Area. The majority do not ressemble the Community model."



But my original point was that a IDL is senseless if one's home
license is anyway in the language of the country you'd be likely to
drive in.

There's more to it than just a translation, it's to allow the different
*groups* of vehicles to be compared. This allows the police to decide
whether you are, in fact, allowed to drive the 40 ton truck on a licence
that in your country only says group 'A'.

God knows it's tricky enough getting the EU DL groups to correspond, let
alone ensuring the groups are the same the whole world over.

--
Tim C.

Tim Challenger wrote in message .. .
On 25 Jul 2004 00:33:34 -0700, Sufaud wrote:

Well, my French license dates from 1980.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/...faq/002_en.htm

Mutual recognition allows for and requires old licences to be recognised.

Directive 91/439 is at
http://tinyurl.com/4ph7r

The directive has some ambiguity, and some lacunae; the transport link
you provided is helpful but perhaps not free from ambiguity, recalling
the 3 cases I cited:

Krueger, Case C-253/01
http://tinyurl.com/32eo9

Skanavi and Chryssanthakopoulos, Case C-193/94
http://tinyurl.com/3eovc

Awoyemi, Case C-230/97 (non-EU citizen not protected by above rule)
http://tinyurl.com/yqvl5

1. If one has an EU licence obtained without tests (as by exchanging a
third country's licence), apparently another EU member state need not
exchange it. Anyway this seems to be the position of the UK DOT. Two
of the above 3 cases seem to relate to the time prior to transposition
of Directive 91/439 (and 96/47
http://tinyurl.com/4255w
relating to the EU common format for licences)

2. I got my French licence by exchanging a UK diplomatic ("old" red
book format, valid 3 years) licence for it. If the DOT is on the ball
they might decline to exchange the full French one for a full UK one
now. They have already refused to exchange my wife's Swiss one
(leaving me to wonder how they found out how she'd gotten it, unless
they'd asked the Geneva authorities. But that was long before the
entry into force of the Swiss treaties
http://www.europa.admin.ch/nbv/expl/uebersicht/e/
which might change things. Except that she didn't take Swiss tests
either, she exchanged a third-country licence for it, as diplomats
everywhere and their families normally can do.

3. I assume that EEA/Swiss nationals are now protected by the 1991
directive and the Krueger and Skanavi decisions. Somehow the provision
making the exchange "optional" had escaped me and I had focused on the
Court's allowance of an "administrative fine" for failure to exchange
(under the 1980 directive).

4. My insurance company seems happy with our situation, which is of
greater concern to me than what the the DOT has to say.

5. For someone with so many licences from so many countries, at least
3 of them still valid, I don't actually drive very much.

Sufaud wrote:

It just occurred to me that German is a national, or rather a
regional, language of Italy

Public officers working regularly in South Tyrol (Italian Alto Adige)
are required to know German and German may be used there to address (in
writing) public authorities and during administration of justice; but
there is no such a requirement for officers or procedures outside South
Tyrol.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail:
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

Sufaud wrote:

It just occurred to me that German is a national, or rather a
regional, language of Italy

Public officers working regularly in South Tyrol (Italian Alto Adige)
are required to know German and German may be used there to address (in
writing) public authorities and during administration of justice; but
there is no such a requirement for officers or procedures outside South
Tyrol.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail:
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

Sufaud wrote:

It just occurred to me that German is a national, or rather a
regional, language of Italy

Public officers working regularly in South Tyrol (Italian Alto Adige)
are required to know German and German may be used there to address (in
writing) public authorities and during administration of justice; but
there is no such a requirement for officers or procedures outside South
Tyrol.

--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail:
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)

(Sufaud) wrote in message m...
B wrote in message . ..
On 25 Jul 2004 00:33:34 -0700, (Sufaud) wrote:

But my original point was that a IDL is senseless if one's home
license is anyway in the language of the country you'd be likely to
drive in.

Since the IDL is a translation, that's certainly true.

And EU rights supersede local law:

I'm willing to believe this is true also, but the original poster
wasn't European.

Like my old French one, I
think my wife's Geneva license is in French only; the Italians could
scarcely demand that she have an Italian translation of it, or they'd
be setting up a licence check at the exit of the Alpine tunnel and
reaping a vast fortune in fines.

That certainly doesn't follow from what you've said. They don't ask to
see an IDL unless they have some other reason to ask to see your
license.

The correct answer is here, thanks to a link posted by somebody else

"Situations relating to third countries (outside the EU)

"You have a driving licence issued by a country located outside the
European Union.

"Member States are not obliged to recognise such a licence, even if
it has already been recognised by one of them. It is necessary to
contact the competent national authority in order to determine whether
the licence is recognized.

"You hold an international driving licence.

"The validity of this licence within the EU depends on the possession
of a national driving licence issued by a Member State. The latter
has to be valid.*

"Within the EU, the principal function of the international driving
licence is to facilitate the comprehension of licences issued outside
the EU. With respect to EU licences has mutual recognition already
been facilitated with the adoption of Commission Decision
2000/275/EC on equivalences between certain categories of driving
licences (as rectified by Commission Decision 2002/256/CE).

"For holders of EU- or EEA-licences, an international driving licence
does not have any specific added value for driving within the EEA. it
always has to be shown together with the Community model national
driving licence. Moreover, a Member State can never require a person
to hold an international driving licence when this person is holder
of a community-model national driving licence."

[Switzerland presumptively counts as an EEA jurisdiction in view of
the new treaties, although the Web page is dated "25-09-2003".
http://www.europa.admin.ch/nbv/expl/uebersicht/e/ ]

(Sufaud) wrote in message m...
B wrote in message . ..
On 25 Jul 2004 00:33:34 -0700, (Sufaud) wrote:

But my original point was that a IDL is senseless if one's home
license is anyway in the language of the country you'd be likely to
drive in.

Since the IDL is a translation, that's certainly true.

And EU rights supersede local law:

I'm willing to believe this is true also, but the original poster
wasn't European.

Like my old French one, I
think my wife's Geneva license is in French only; the Italians could
scarcely demand that she have an Italian translation of it, or they'd
be setting up a licence check at the exit of the Alpine tunnel and
reaping a vast fortune in fines.

That certainly doesn't follow from what you've said. They don't ask to
see an IDL unless they have some other reason to ask to see your
license.

The correct answer is here, thanks to a link posted by somebody else

"Situations relating to third countries (outside the EU)

"You have a driving licence issued by a country located outside the
European Union.

"Member States are not obliged to recognise such a licence, even if
it has already been recognised by one of them. It is necessary to
contact the competent national authority in order to determine whether
the licence is recognized.

"You hold an international driving licence.

"The validity of this licence within the EU depends on the possession
of a national driving licence issued by a Member State. The latter
has to be valid.*

"Within the EU, the principal function of the international driving
licence is to facilitate the comprehension of licences issued outside
the EU. With respect to EU licences has mutual recognition already
been facilitated with the adoption of Commission Decision
2000/275/EC on equivalences between certain categories of driving
licences (as rectified by Commission Decision 2002/256/CE).

"For holders of EU- or EEA-licences, an international driving licence
does not have any specific added value for driving within the EEA. it
always has to be shown together with the Community model national
driving licence. Moreover, a Member State can never require a person
to hold an international driving licence when this person is holder
of a community-model national driving licence."

[Switzerland presumptively counts as an EEA jurisdiction in view of
the new treaties, although the Web page is dated "25-09-2003".
http://www.europa.admin.ch/nbv/expl/uebersicht/e/ ]