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#91
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America travel pointers
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:24:39 -0500, Doug McDonald
wrote: Hatunen wrote: Which urban areas? How much cheap land lies with 120 km of Manhattan Island or the Chicago Loop? For Chicago ... vast amounts. Of course, "cheap" is relative. Let's call it "farmland". "Prime quality farmland". Within 72 miles of the Loop? ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
#92
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America travel pointers
Hatunen wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:24:39 -0500, Doug McDonald wrote: Hatunen wrote: Which urban areas? How much cheap land lies with 120 km of Manhattan Island or the Chicago Loop? For Chicago ... vast amounts. Of course, "cheap" is relative. Let's call it "farmland". "Prime quality farmland". Within 72 miles of the Loop? No cheap land within 72 miles of the Loop...in fact not much cheap land in many parts of Illinois at all, it's some of the richest farmland in the world. You might get some cheap land in a slummy place like Gary, Indiana, or Robbins, Illinois, but those are primarily exceptions. -- Best Greg |
#93
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America travel pointers
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:43:35 -0700, Hatunen wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:23:20 +0200, B wrote: On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:03:13 -0700, Hatunen wrote: ... People have wanted to escape the cities and own a piece of the countryside for almost as long as the republic has existed. They started moving out to the suburbs when rapid transit was developed and moved in hordes once most people had an automobile. The same trend is happening in Europe. Only in most of Europe there's not as much room to move. In the US, people commute more than 50 miles every day from the suburbs to the city centers. In most of Europe, you'd have bumped into one or more other cities or large towns if you went that far out. Define "most of Europe". Well, let's leave out Finland for starters. -- Barbara Vaughan My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero dot it. |
#94
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America travel pointers
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:47:56 GMT, "Frank F. Matthews"
wrote: B Vaughan wrote: The low population density of US urban areas is caused by the relative abundance of cheap land in the peripheries of cities, combined with cheap fuel. I can't see how the lack of mass transit could have more than a small effect on modern population density. The arrival of mass transit in the early 20th century actually encouraged the development of bedroom suburbs. I think, Barbara, that you are looking at too short a historical record. In the early 20th century the lowering of the density of US cities was often driven by mass transit. This is what then made the farther our areas accessible. Of course, today, these former far out locations are now close in. There is no reason to believe that continued support of mass transit in the mid & later 1900s would not have led to further dispersion. Nothing I said would contradict that. The statement I was refuting was that the *lack* of mass transit was a *cause* of disperson. We could go back thousands of years, and I don't think you would find a single case where the lack of mass transit caused dispersion. I would say that you could make a better case that the lack of mass transit caused concentration. I see the desire to move to the periphery with some space for your residence as a feature of US culture prior to the prominence of the automobile. The auto certainly encouraged it but the tendency was there. I didn't say the automobile caused it. I did say that cheap fuel enabled it. -- Barbara Vaughan My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero dot it. |
#95
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America travel pointers
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:56:59 -0700, Hatunen wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:23:19 +0200, B wrote: On 21 Aug 2006 11:07:22 -0700, "Iceman" wrote: without mass transit you can't have higher density. This statement makes no sense at all. Cities have been very densely populated for thousands of years. In fact, without high density, mass transit tends to be prohibitively expensive, but the converse is not true at all. Which came first, the density or the transit? The density of course, but that certainly doesn't contradict what I said. The low population density of US urban areas is caused by the relative abundance of cheap land in the peripheries of cities, combined with cheap fuel. Which urban areas? How much cheap land lies with 120 km of Manhattan Island or the Chicago Loop? Or San Francisco? Very little. And the only suburban growth is even further out. People are now commuting to New York from the Scranton (PA) vicinity, where there still is some cheap(er) land. I can't see how the lack of mass transit could have more than a small effect on modern population density. The arrival of mass transit in the early 20th century actually encouraged the development of bedroom suburbs. Mass transit arrived well before the 1920s; there were street railways by the late 19th century. It was rapid transit, i.e., commuter services that arrived in the 1920s. Leading this movement were the Van Swerigen brothers who bought up the land they would call Shaker Heights near Cleveland and then built a rapid transit system connecting Shaker Heights with downtown Cleveland. I was trying to refute the statement that the *lack* of mass transit *caused* population dispersion. Nothing you say contradicts anything I said; indeed much of what you say supports it. Unless you're just nitpicking on the details. In that case, let me be more precise: "the arrival of mass transit to peripheral areas, etc." -- Barbara Vaughan My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero dot it. |
#96
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America travel pointers
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:10:17 GMT, Greg Guarino
wrote: My wife and I took two train vacations in Europe, using Eurailpasses and booking trains as we went along. It was a lot of fun and I recommend it but there was some variability in the service. In Switzerland you'd better have your hind quarters on the train by the posted departure time; they are relentlessly punctual. In Italy we found quite a bit more um, *elasticity* in the schedule. We also found a strong entrepreneurial spirit among the porters on the Italian trains. Liquor and food were stocked in the porter's room and available for sale. So was a transfer to one of the many compartments curiously left empty while all the occupied ones were at maximum capacity. I guess if they had distributed the passengers more evenly to begin with there would be fewer business opportunities for the staff. Food is for sale on trains in Italy not because of entrepeneurial spirit, but because it is a service offered. The passengers are concentrated because it's less work for the staff that way, and any change in a reserveration after you board the train entails a service charge. If you were implying graft, I have travelled extensively on Italian trains (I live in Italy) and have never seen it. I *have* seen conductors willing to bend the rules slightly to a passenger's advantage. For instance, I once got on an early train without a ticket, along with three other passengers, as the station wasn't open yet. This entails a hefty service charge, and the fact that the ticket window is closed doesn't obviate it. The conductor suggested that since we were all going to Rome, we buy a single ticket for four people, which would allow us to split the surcharge among the four of us. That sort of helpful solution is something I wouldn't have expected to see on, for example, a Dutch train. My favorite bit of unoffical commerce was when the porter on a Hungarian train offered us a "l a n g u a g e" sandwich, rolling the "L" with his tongue stuck out as he said the word. That was a clue to the proper translation of the sandwich: Tongue. We opted for the dining car instead. A truly excellent meal, unless you don't like paprika. There was paprika in the meat, the potatoes and the salad. None in the drinks, as far as I could tell. Why do you assume that this service was unofficial? Trains in many European countries offer food from a rolling cart, or something of the sort, aside from the dining car. I've been on Amtrak on the East Coast a number of times. Not quite on time, but no disasters. Greg Guarino -- Barbara Vaughan My email address is my first initial followed by my last name at libero dot it. |
#97
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America travel pointers
Hatunen wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:24:39 -0500, Doug McDonald wrote: Hatunen wrote: Which urban areas? How much cheap land lies with 120 km of Manhattan Island or the Chicago Loop? For Chicago ... vast amounts. Of course, "cheap" is relative. Let's call it "farmland". "Prime quality farmland". Within 72 miles of the Loop? Two words: GOOGLE EARTH Another you might try: Kankakee Long answer .... Kankakee is well within 72 miles of the Loop and is surrounded by farmland. Metro Chicago actually stops quite abruptly somewhat south of I-80, well within 72 miles. To the west it peters out more gradually. To the north and southeast it goes on "forever". To the east is, of course, water. Doug McDonald |
#98
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America travel pointers
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:01:13 +0200, B wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:10:17 GMT, Greg Guarino wrote: My wife and I took two train vacations in Europe, using Eurailpasses and booking trains as we went along. It was a lot of fun and I recommend it but there was some variability in the service. In Switzerland you'd better have your hind quarters on the train by the posted departure time; they are relentlessly punctual. In Italy we found quite a bit more um, *elasticity* in the schedule. We also found a strong entrepreneurial spirit among the porters on the Italian trains. Liquor and food were stocked in the porter's room and available for sale. So was a transfer to one of the many compartments curiously left empty while all the occupied ones were at maximum capacity. I guess if they had distributed the passengers more evenly to begin with there would be fewer business opportunities for the staff. Food is for sale on trains in Italy not because of entrepeneurial spirit, but because it is a service offered. This was quite some time ago and maybe things have changed, but the situation I was describing bore no resemblance to an official service. The porter even showed me his little compartment, with cigarettes, liquor and sandwiches (possibly made by his wife) nestled in amongst the other random items stowed on the shelves. The passengers are concentrated because it's less work for the staff that way, The particular trip that comes to mind (although it wasn't the only one) was an overnight train from Paris to Rome, so I suppose it was actually an Intercity train, but the staff people we met were Italian. Many if not most of the couchette compartments were labeled "Prenotato", but were empty. The few that were labeled "Non-Prenotato" (not reserved), like our designated compartment, had the full complement of six passengers. In our case, it was seven, including a small child on his mother's lap playing with a loud toy. There was no way to get those six and a half people plus all their luggage into that compartment, at least as it was configured at the time. Once they folded out the bunks for the night it might have been possible to jam it all in. As it was, a young Swedish couple left their large hiking packs in the corridor. The Italian mother had some of her prodigious collection of baggage out there too. I can't remember if the train picked up passengers along the way, it didn't make many stops. In any case, the train was not nearly full at any point in the fifteen-hour ride. and any change in a reserveration after you board the train entails a service charge. Unless it was official railway policy to have the passenger and the porter negotiate amount of the "service charge" in the corridor, to be paid in cash on the spot, with no receipt or hint of paperwork, I'm pretty sure that I'm right about the nature of the transaction. On top of that, there was no "change in reservation" involved. We booked Couchette berths, he was just moving us to one of the empty Couchette compartments. And, I might add, guaranteeing us that we'd have that compartment for six to ourselves. If you were implying graft, I have travelled extensively on Italian trains (I live in Italy) and have never seen it. I don't doubt your experience; I can only accurately report mine. We managed to get ourselves a less crowded couchette (eventually one woman joined us) for the trip from Rome to Basel in the same fashion. I wonder if there might not be more opportunity for this sort of thing on overnight trains. My favorite bit of unoffical commerce was when the porter on a Hungarian train offered us a "l a n g u a g e" sandwich, rolling the "L" with his tongue stuck out as he said the word. That was a clue to the proper translation of the sandwich: Tongue. We opted for the dining car instead. A truly excellent meal, unless you don't like paprika. There was paprika in the meat, the potatoes and the salad. None in the drinks, as far as I could tell. Why do you assume that this service was unofficial? Trains in many European countries offer food from a rolling cart, or something of the sort, aside from the dining car. No cart, no tray, no menu, no display and no other choices. Just a few obviously homemade sandwiches in saran wrap. Nothing about that particularly bothered me, by the way. Had the type of sandwich been more to my taste I might have considered it. It's just as well we didn't, though. The meal we had instead was very enjoyable. Besides the excellent food, the decor had a certain elegance to it. There was even a bit of adventure, ordering from the German language menu (easier for us to decipher than Hungarian). Greg Guarino |
#99
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America travel pointers
B Vaughan wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:43:35 -0700, Hatunen wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:23:20 +0200, B wrote: On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:03:13 -0700, Hatunen wrote: ... People have wanted to escape the cities and own a piece of the countryside for almost as long as the republic has existed. They started moving out to the suburbs when rapid transit was developed and moved in hordes once most people had an automobile. The same trend is happening in Europe. Only in most of Europe there's not as much room to move. In the US, people commute more than 50 miles every day from the suburbs to the city centers. In most of Europe, you'd have bumped into one or more other cities or large towns if you went that far out. Define "most of Europe". Well, let's leave out Finland for starters. Probably Russia as well and, perhaps, the Ukraine. Oh yes Romania & Bulgaria also. Hungary also appeared to have a good bit of space although it can get crowded around Budapest. |
#100
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America travel pointers
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:01:11 +0200, B
wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:43:35 -0700, Hatunen wrote: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:23:20 +0200, B wrote: On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:03:13 -0700, Hatunen wrote: ... People have wanted to escape the cities and own a piece of the countryside for almost as long as the republic has existed. They started moving out to the suburbs when rapid transit was developed and moved in hordes once most people had an automobile. The same trend is happening in Europe. Only in most of Europe there's not as much room to move. In the US, people commute more than 50 miles every day from the suburbs to the city centers. In most of Europe, you'd have bumped into one or more other cities or large towns if you went that far out. Define "most of Europe". Well, let's leave out Finland for starters. For your thesis, I suggest also leaving out, as a minimum, Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, and perhaps Poland and Spain. In fact, almost anywhere not near a megalopolis. ************* DAVE HATUNEN ) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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