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#301
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:24:39 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote: John Kulp writes: Right. Lack of medical care had nothing to do with it. Nearly so. It's impossible to put 15,000 people under medical care just in case they develop hyperthermia. And hyperthermia can develop quickly, killing its victim long before medical care can be obtained. And hyperthermia does not necessarily require complex management--the primary treatment is cooling of the victim, which can be accomplished without the aid of a hospital or doctor. But the main defense against heatstroke is prevention, i.e., adequate cooling of the environment. The self-appointed medical specialist speaks again. So, in this advanced democracy, out of a population of some 63 million people and 185,000 plus doctors can't handle 15,000 people huh? They never heard of temporary facilities, like school gyms, etc. to handle like is done here? Of course, if they were all on vacation and wouldn't come back, which was the real reason everybody but you knows was the real reason they couldn't be treated. Great system. No backups at all for emergencies. They could have been brought to hospitals and treated. How would they be found? Where would you put 15,000 people with heatstroke? What treatment could you offer them that would not have been matched or made unnecessary by air conditioning? Uh, they could call themselve if they didn't feel well, or their family, friends or neighbors couldn't? How stupid were these people? Same as for any ailment. Gyms, etc. like I said is where you put them, just like we do. Hotels, etc. Are you so dense you don't understand that they didn't have air conditioning apparently which is why they had the problem. So you take them to places with airconditioning and treat the symptoms, put them in ice baths, and a whole host of other options. The fact is, it got very hot, and there was no air conditioning, so people died. That always happens in heat waves. Lots of people died in this case because the heat was extreme. Sure it does, but in no other developed country has it killed anywhere near this many people. Uhh, because their doctors were not all on vacation and wouldn't come back which is the real reason that everyone knows except you who keeps coming up with this crap? And was why the French health minister was canned. |
#302
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:30:50 +1000, "dechucka"
wrote: "John Kulp" wrote in message ... On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:24:17 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop wrote: Make credence recognised that on Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:22:17 GMT, (John Kulp) has scripted: On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:25:46 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop wrote: Yes, I could point out the numerous things that the USA has acquired from the outside world, but from experience that is a complete waste of time, because Americans are too damn proud to accept that America is just another country, like every other. If you can, why don't you babbler? And I have no problem accepting that America is just another country. I would just love to leave you cretins on you own to solve your own problems. Like Bosnia. Did a great job there without us didn't you? How many got slaughtered there again? I can't believe you had to resort to that. Actually I can, which is why I didn't feel like engaging in a sensible debate in the first place. Because you can't, of course. Proud of the fact that Europe sat on its hands for something like 12 years before we stepped in and ended. See also, Hitler, Moussilini, etc. etc. I think you will find that the US sat on its hands when Hitler and Mussolini were threatening Europe Oh that's right. I forgot that the hundreds of thousands of US killed and wounded happened in the US and would later shipped over to be put in graves in France and elsewhere. That's right. That's what happened. |
#303
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
Make credence recognised that on Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:30:50 +1000,
"dechucka" has scripted: "John Kulp" wrote in message ... Because you can't, of course. Proud of the fact that Europe sat on its hands for something like 12 years before we stepped in and ended. See also, Hitler, Moussilini, etc. etc. I think you will find that the US sat on its hands when Hitler and Mussolini were threatening Europe That would depend on the history book. -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
#304
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
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#305
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
John Kulp writes:
The self-appointed medical specialist speaks again. You make it sound as if I'm discussing some exceedingly arcane medical knowledge, when in fact I'm simply pointing out what any educated person is likely to know. One hardly need be a "medical specialist" to know and understand hyperthermia. So, in this advanced democracy, out of a population of some 63 million people and 185,000 plus doctors can't handle 15,000 people huh? That's right. But even if it could, they'd have to find and transport people developing hyperthermia, and there's no practical way to do that, as it is impossible to monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time. They never heard of temporary facilities, like school gyms, etc. to handle like is done here? It isn't done very well anywhere else, either. Heat waves tend to be deadly wherever they occur. Uh, they could call themselve if they didn't feel well, or their family, friends or neighbors couldn't? You may wish to do a bit of research on this. The symptoms of heatstroke are non-specific and the onset is often insidious. Heatstroke interferes with cerebration, such that a person suffering from it may well be unaware that anything is wrong. It can progress very quickly. Family, friends, and neighbors would not be able to help unless they were keeping potential victims under continuous surveillance. And they would still be at risk themselves. The only way to fix this is through prevention, by keeping the environment cool enough to prevent hyperthermia from developing in the first place. And you don't do it with bottles of water or fans ... you do it with refrigeration. Same as for any ailment. Gyms, etc. like I said is where you put them, just like we do. Hotels, etc. Are you so dense you don't understand that they didn't have air conditioning apparently which is why they had the problem. So you take them to places with airconditioning and treat the symptoms, put them in ice baths, and a whole host of other options. See above. How do you find the victims? Sure it does, but in no other developed country has it killed anywhere near this many people. The heat wave of 2003 afflicted France far more than any other country, as you would discover if you actually consulted the numbers for that heat wave. |
#307
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
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#308
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
"John Kulp" wrote in message ... On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:30:50 +1000, "dechucka" wrote: "John Kulp" wrote in message ... On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:24:17 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop wrote: Make credence recognised that on Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:22:17 GMT, (John Kulp) has scripted: On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:25:46 +0200, Doesn't Frequently Mop wrote: Yes, I could point out the numerous things that the USA has acquired from the outside world, but from experience that is a complete waste of time, because Americans are too damn proud to accept that America is just another country, like every other. If you can, why don't you babbler? And I have no problem accepting that America is just another country. I would just love to leave you cretins on you own to solve your own problems. Like Bosnia. Did a great job there without us didn't you? How many got slaughtered there again? I can't believe you had to resort to that. Actually I can, which is why I didn't feel like engaging in a sensible debate in the first place. Because you can't, of course. Proud of the fact that Europe sat on its hands for something like 12 years before we stepped in and ended. See also, Hitler, Moussilini, etc. etc. I think you will find that the US sat on its hands when Hitler and Mussolini were threatening Europe Oh that's right. I forgot that the hundreds of thousands of US killed and wounded happened in the US and would later shipped over to be put in graves in France and elsewhere. That's right. That's what happened. Hitler invaded Poland in what year? The Americans joined the war in Europe in what year and why? I think you will find there is a gap of a couple of years between those dates. |
#309
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 19:55:55 GMT, grant kinsley
wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:07:34 GMT, (John Kulp) wrote: On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 21:27:13 GMT, grant kinsley wrote: Just an important one for me is Novo Nordisk in Denmark. One of the world leaders in recombinant DNA produced proteins, they not only produce a variety of human analogue insulins, but also recombinant factor VII for hemophiliacs, Norditropin, a synthetic human growth hormone and are currently testing for a variety of anti-tumour proteins. Thats a quick sample of what the rest of the world is doing, took me about 10 minutes to find that and certainly represents a nice slice of the many things that worldwide labs, both large and small are doing. Well good for you. You have done your research. I won't go into how Pfizer is the largest in the world, has the largest selling drug in Lipitor, etc. etc. It is true that these companies developed those you cite, but the question is where not who. Most if not all of these countries have major facilities in the US where a lot of r and d is done and they do a lot together with other companies. A lot of the research is also done in universities, not companies in any case and licensed to the companies. In any case, as I stated before, I have no problem acknowledging that this is a global interconnected business. I was simply refuting Black's nonsense about the US having a ghastly system. You at least answer intelligently which is appreciated. Much better than the others who just babble and ignore the very real faults of their systems. the largest selling company doesn't provide 90% of the development. How do you know who does 90% of the development. If you want to talk aboput where development takes, it is all over the world with studies in many many countries, so your whining on that front doesn't hold up. There are university sites throughout western Europe, Canada, India South Africa working on drugs for many of the companies, including Pfizer. True, but this doesn't tell anything about how much of the development is done where does it? It just says that development is being undertaken in lots of different places. The point of argument here is that you refuted Black with an argument that you couldn't back, you've been shown the evidence, now move along to something you can back. You haven't done anything but list a bunch of different drugs. Nothing more. I never said non-US drug companies didn't do development. I said that the article I read said that 90% (at the point the article was written) was done in the US. Period. And you have no idea where that list of drugs you came up with were developed do you? For all you know, they may have been developed in the US. The fact that 10 minutes of research on my part showed your 90% of all good medical things are american is false. Maybe you should learn that arguments need facts to back. Which, of course, is a complete distortion of what I said, which referred only to drug development and, as I said, you proved no such thing. You have no clue where those drugs you listed were developed, as I said. You only showed who sells them after they are developed and who owns their rights to do so. Nothing more. Bluntly I don't care about the American medical system, That's for Americans to worry about. I found your misinformation, however, offensive and you made those statements based on your nationalistic hubris. And you are full of ****, because I did no such thing but you're making a great attempt here of doing that yourself aren't you? Crowing about a list of drugs owned and marketed by non-US companies that you have no clue where they were developed. |
#310
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Why are foreigners who have never set foot in the US obsessed with how much and how we spend and how we spend our bucks on our excellent health care?
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 22:01:04 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote: John Kulp writes: The self-appointed medical specialist speaks again. You make it sound as if I'm discussing some exceedingly arcane medical knowledge, when in fact I'm simply pointing out what any educated person is likely to know. One hardly need be a "medical specialist" to know and understand hyperthermia. Me, I'll take the medical specialists who actually know what they doing and talking about. So, in this advanced democracy, out of a population of some 63 million people and 185,000 plus doctors can't handle 15,000 people huh? That's right. If you say so. Then it's a world class crappy system not supposedly the world's finest as the WHO thinks. Can't even handle an infitesimal percentage of the population. World class that. But even if it could, they'd have to find and transport people developing hyperthermia, and there's no practical way to do that, as it is impossible to monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time. Gee, can even transport about 1/3 of the people that go to a football game spread out all over France. They never heard of temporary facilities, like school gyms, etc. to handle like is done here? It isn't done very well anywhere else, either. Heat waves tend to be deadly wherever they occur. Complete bull**** as usual. It's done all the time in emergencies here. But I guess in our dismal system (see Black) we plan for various emergencies in advance (excepting the Bushies, of course, who couldn't organize a Boy Scout reunion). Uh, they could call themselve if they didn't feel well, or their family, friends or neighbors couldn't? You may wish to do a bit of research on this. The symptoms of heatstroke are non-specific and the onset is often insidious. Heatstroke interferes with cerebration, such that a person suffering from it may well be unaware that anything is wrong. It can progress very quickly. Hmm, you must be suffering from it now. As wikipedia says "Heat prostration, or heat exhaustion, is characterized by mental confusion, muscle cramps, and often nausea or vomiting. At this stage the victim will likely be sweating profusely. With continued exposure to ambient heat, which sometimes is facilitated by the mental confusion, temperature may rise into the 39 to 40 °C range (103 to 104 °F), and lead to full-blown heat stroke." Yeah, these are all symptons that wouldn't lead someone to think something is seriously wrong alright. Family, friends, and neighbors would not be able to help unless they were keeping potential victims under continuous surveillance. And they would still be at risk themselves. Ah bull****. Anyone with half a brain would recognize that something serious was likely wrong. And call for medical help (except you, the self-appointed expert who would let them die while you're screwing around). No one needs to know what is wrong with a person like this. It's obvious it's something serious that they should call for medical help for. Of course, that was all on vacation so calling wouldn't have done a thing, which was the real issue. The only way to fix this is through prevention, by keeping the environment cool enough to prevent hyperthermia from developing in the first place. And you don't do it with bottles of water or fans ... you do it with refrigeration. Bull****. You could put someone in a tub with ice. Pure and simple. But anyone with a brain would quickly call for medical help, but that would exempt you. Same as for any ailment. Gyms, etc. like I said is where you put them, just like we do. Hotels, etc. Are you so dense you don't understand that they didn't have air conditioning apparently which is why they had the problem. So you take them to places with airconditioning and treat the symptoms, put them in ice baths, and a whole host of other options. See above. How do you find the victims? So 15,000 people were all hiding? Right. That's why the health minister got canned, the government blamed the 35 hour work week, etc. Because they were all really hiding. Then why was there any blame at all? If they were hiding, it wouldn't have mattered where the doctors were there, there was airconditioning or whatever. Sure it does, but in no other developed country has it killed anywhere near this many people. The heat wave of 2003 afflicted France far more than any other country, as you would discover if you actually consulted the numbers for that heat wave. I did braindead. Here it is. The reason it afflicted France more than anyone else, in terms of number dead, was complete incompetence. Here is other European areas having the same heat problem: "United Kingdom In the UK, a record-breaking 38.5 °C (101.4 °F) was recorded in Brogdale Orchards, one mile southwest of Faversham, Kent on Sunday, 10 August 2003. The previous highest recorded temperature was 37.1 °C (98.8 °F), recorded in Cheltenham. [3] A retrospective analysis published in 2005 showed that the heat wave caused 2,139 excess deaths in the UK for the period 4 to 13 August 2003.[4] Italy Nearly 3,000 people died in Italy,[5] where temperatures varied between 38 and 40 degrees Celsius in most cities for weeks, according to eurosurveillance.org.[citation needed] Other sources reported a much lower figure, not only for Italy but for other countries as well. New Scientist magazine reported 4,200 deaths in Italy and Spain attributable to the 2003 heatwave.[6] The Guardian reported 1,000 deaths in Italy, 4,000 in Spain.[7] Portugal There were extensive forest fires in Portugal. Five percent of the countryside and ten percent of the forests were destroyed, an estimated 4,000 km². Eighteen people died in the fires. Temperatures reached as high as 47.3 °C in Amareleja. [8][9] Spain There were 141 deaths in the country. Temperature records were broken in various cities including Jerez 45.1 °C,[citation needed] Badajoz 45.0 °C,[citation needed] Huelva 43.4 °C,[citation needed] Gerona 41 °C,[10] Burgos 38.8 °C,[citation needed] San Sebastián 38.6 °C,[citation needed] Pontevedra 36 °C,[11] and Barcelona 36 °C.[12] In other cities of southern Spain, record temperatures were not recorded but the temperatures were higher than 40 °C: Murcia 41.8 °C,[citation needed] Toledo 42.0 °C,[citation needed] Cordoba, 46.2 °C[citation needed], and in Sevilla, it was 47 °C.[13] Germany In Germany, a record temperature of 40.4 Celsius (104.7 Fahrenheit) was recorded at Roth bei Nürnberg, Bavaria.[citation needed] With only half the normal rainfall, rivers were at their lowest this century,[citation needed] and shipping could not navigate the Elbe or Danube. Around 7,000 people (mostly elderly) died during the 2003 heatwave in Germany. Switzerland Melting glaciers in the Alps caused avalanches and flash floods in Switzerland. A new nationwide record temperature of 41.5 Celsius (106.7 °F) was recorded in Grono, Graubünden.[14] I guess the heat didn't stop at the border, did it? |
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