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Subject: When Does The Rapture Occur?
From: " ::: Jesus is LORD :::"
Newsgroups:
alt.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.alt.reli gion.christian,alt.bibl
e-study,alt.christnet.theology,alt.christnet.christi anlife

Fred A Stover wrote in

"Randy " wrote in message
...
On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 14:18:15 -0500,
In newsgroup "alt.bible",
Article ,
"Fred A Stover" wrote:
The Final Tribulation

Jesus talked about "The Wind"

In the blink of your eye

You have become

Be welcomed







"Randy " wrote in message
...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says those who have died in Christ
from the time Paul wrote as well as those who are still alive
and remain when He returns, will all be caught up together, to
meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the
Lord.

The question is, when does this event occur, in relation to
the Tribulation? Some say before, some during, some after.

Those who say it's during the Tribulation, cite the rapture of
the two witnesses in Revelation 11, claiming they represent
or include the entire church. The problem with that view is
that if the entire church is killed off, then there would be
no one alive and remaining when the Lord returns. Paul said,
"we shall not all sleep", but we shall all be changed (1 Cor.
15).

There doesn't seem to be any reason then, to conclude the two
witnesses are anything more than two literal men, who are
God's empowered prophets.

There is compelling evidence that the two witnesses are two of the
church changed in the twinkling of an eye and raised incorruptible
(1Cor 15:52): His word. They are either a part of the resurrection
of the righteous or they're a part of the resurrection at the
judgment, for there are only two resurrections: "Marvel not at
this: for the time is coming, in the which all
that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;
they that
have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have
done evil,
unto the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

Resurrection is more than merely living again, for there are a
number examples of people living again in both the Old and New
Testaments, but what
the Author says of resurrection as He reveal the first resurrection
is: "For
since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead. For
as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, but
every man
in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are
Christ's at his coming" (1Cor 15:21-23). Resurrection is the
restoration from the fall of Adam, and both the dead and the alive
and remaining are resurrected
at His coming. The only other resurrection is at the judgment at
the end of
the millennium.

Rev. 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in
heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms
of our Lord, and
of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. [16] And the
four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell
upon their faces, and worshipped God, [17] Saying, We give thee
thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the
time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou
shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the
saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest
destroy them which destroy the earth.


Others believe the rapture will occur after the Tribulation.
The problem with that is, the bride is apparently the army
dressed in white, that returns with the Lord, from heaven, for
the marriage supper on earth (Rev. 19). There's no mention in
Revelation 19 of anyone rising from the dead, or being caught
up into the air. And what would be the point, as it would
just be a big "U-turn", since the Lord is on His way down to
earth, not back to heaven?

They confuse the period of "great tribulation" within "the great
tribulation" with the great tribulation itself. But there is a
problem with
the assumption that He takes His bride to battle (possibly with
"holy ones"
being translated "saints" even when it refers to angels), for Jesus
tells us
who the holy ones accompanying Him will be: "Whosoever therefore
shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and
sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed,
when he cometh in the glory of his
Father with the holy angels" (Mark 8:38). They are "the armies
which were in
heaven" (Rev 19:14), not His betrothed who was on earth. His church
goes to
the place prepared in His Father's house(John 14:2-3) in Rev 11, and
descends in the place prepared in Rev 21.


Further, there is a resurrection that happens in Revelation
20:4, but that's a resurrection of those who were martyred
during the Tribulation, and they are not going up to the
clouds, but are being raised to reign with Christ on earth.

They are in the first resurrection at His coming, and the only other
resurrection is at the end of the millennium.

There just doesn't seem to be any mention of, or fitting place
for a rapture of the church, any time after the Tribulation
begins. I believe the rapture is shown in Revelation 4:1,
when John is caught up to heaven, before he is allowed to see
the things which shall be hereafter, for "them who dwell on
the earth"

The great tribulation is the tribulation that began with the fall
and ends when its cause is cast into the lake of fire.

Thanks for your comments.

You're welcome. When we read the Author and attend to His words and
the meanings He gives to them, like we would any other author, we see
much more than others who read it like a technical manual.

Correct! That is what most people forget... who the Author is, and that
He is alive.


--
His,

More @ www.selah-tx.net

ho echon ota akoueto Preparing the way of
the Lord


Verily I say unto you, Whosoever
shall not receive the kingdom of God
as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
(Mark 10:15)


)))))))





Ron May wrote in
:


This is Ron May on [rec.travel.cruises]...


It seems the resident forger on [alt.comp.freeware], known as Ron May
( that's not ME, I am the legit Ron May who posts here on
rec.travel.cruises) has gotten a replacement account at sunsite.dk and
is attempting to disrupt this group again by cross-posting here.

For the record, I never use that server. Gordon, Darling, Yrrah, John
Corliss, Mark Marsh, Bjorn S., Cawshus and maybe others from that
newsgroup who've been forged are now using x-privat, as I am.

Any traffic posted to A.C.F. through [sunsite.dk] probably should not
be accepted at face value at least for now, and there are several
others that are easy to abuse as well.

When some post seems out of character, it's good to check the header
before taking the bait.

My post headers always contain all of the following:

Path: x-privat.org!not-for-mail

From: Ron May (Easy to forge, but sometimes
altered because forging name and email will often get an account
cancelled by most legitimate servers).

X-Trace: x-privat (and trace characters)

X-Complaints-To: abuse@x-privat

Much header information above can also be forged, but if it is, the
dead giveaway is that it is posted through an anonymizing mail2news
server such az dizum.com and the real Path: will reveal that.

VBG

hummingbird wrote in
. 0.0.1:

'Nicodemus' wrote thus:

Subject: When Does The Rapture Occur?
From: " ::: Jesus is LORD :::"
Newsgroups:


Nicodemus, Are you an "End-Timer"?



No, I am not.

But this world is so messed up, I hope things can get better.