Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport

"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:04:42 -0500, "Sancho Panza"
If the trees are not a religious symbol, why is there
so much fervor to display them?

I am not religious, and I display them.

Just at Christmas or at other times, too?

"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
--
"James A. Donald"
any one who not only does not celebrate it, but gets
upset and offended by other people celebrating it,
is indeed a bigot.

"Sancho Panza"
You would no doubt celebrate even more imams and
others taking out their prayer rugs and doing their
thing in the middle of a public place that you are
using.

There was no manger at the airport, nor any prayer. The
airport Christmas was carefully sanitized of anything
with the slightest connection to Christianity.

If the trees have no connection to Christianity, why do basically just
Christians use them?

"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
"James A. Donald"
By "you guys" I mean everyone that gets so enraged
by the symbols of Christianity that they cannot even
stand symbols that are associated with the symbols
of Christianity - I mean commies, militant Jews,
radical islamists, Gaia worshippers, the usual.
Hindus, animists and ancestor worshippers somehow
never have this problem.

"Sancho Panza"
But you are saying in posts right around this one that
it is not a religious symbol.

It is not a religious symbol. It is something that
reminds you guys of a religious symbol - as I said, a
symbol of a symbol. You see the tree and think about
mangers.

Not only is the theology contorted, now the geography and botany are, too.
Douglas firs and spruces in Bethlehem, suuurrreee.

wrote in message
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:38:26 -0800, markzoom wrote:


Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.


Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel
and
denouncing anti-Semitism.

By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?

It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL Like the
eagle is to the US!:

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp

I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state
emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country. But hey, maybe
yanks should know who their real masters are.

That's stupid.

Oh? I bet there would be an army of zionist shysters beating down doors
if a Muslim Iman insisted on an 8' crescent and moon displayed at US
airports on Muslim religious holidays.

Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel.

So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current
and recognised religions, either then?
Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli
government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory.

Here, many regard it as a religious symbol.

In the US, only less than 2% do. Did you know that there are just as
many muslims as jews in the US, btw?

If we're going to let one
religious symbol be displayed on public property at public expense, we
should let all of them be displayed.

You'll find that many places won't display anything at all instead of
being forced to incur the expense of purchasing and managing the
displays of dozens of minority religions on their festivals year round.

But for the one favored religion, whatever the trouble and expense is more
than fine.

wrote in message
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

I notice nobody asking why it is tax money has to be spent on ornaments
rather than silly things like, you know, fixing potholes or even
something
really absurd like airport security...

That attitude could help explain why socialist countries have such a
reputation for being ugly, spirit-killing places.


What........ like the Bronx and South LA ?

wrote:
Arturo Magidin wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:

Arturo Magidin wrote:

So you wouldn't mind an 8' swastika, a symbol used in various current
and recognised religions, either then?

The nazi swastika is different from the symbol in eastern religions;
the fold goes the other way.

Who said anything about the nazi swastika?

Fair enough. As I understand it, "swastika" refers to the nazi
symbol; the hindu symbol is called "shubthika" (good symbol).

Semantics.

One man's "semantics" is another man's "accuracy", "truth", and
"precision."

Do you think an 8' swastika-like symbol should be displayed
at a US airport on hindu/budhist festivals ?

I think that IF the airport wants to open its spaces for ONE religion
to display its symbols, no matter how secularized, then it should open
its spaces for ALL religions. So if the airport is willing to offer
space for a christmas display, then it should open its spaces for a
Hanukahh display, and for Hindu displays. If such displays include
shubhtikas, well, so what?


Or a crescent moon and
star on muslim ones (just as many muslims as jews in the US!)?

Setting aside that muslim holidays don't usually go for displays,
again: IF the airport offers its public spaces for one, then it should
offer them for ALL on an equal basis. That does include muslims and
their crescent moons, jews and their hanukyahs, hindus and their
shubhtikas, wiccans and their five-pointed stars, etc.

IF they want to prevent certain denominations from having access to the
space, then they ought to prevent ALL denominations from having access
to the space.






Many of those that know a Menorah is the official emblem of the Israeli
government would see it as a symbol of another invasion of territory.

The Hanukyah (Hanukah-menorah) is different from the Menorah in the
national emblem. Much like the star of David is different from the wiccan 5
pointed star.

The Menorah in the national emblem is a seven-branched
candelabrum. The Hanukyah, by contrast, is a nine-branched
candelabrum.

A minor detail.

Hardly a minor detail. Just like only the official emblem of the
american government must be a bald eagle, not just any kind of eagle,

They vary greatly too, "A" bald eagle is used, not the same "one".

And unless they are placed as in the seal, they are not usually
considered to be "the official emblem of the american government." Yet
you are arguing that something which is NOT the same as the one in the
israeli national emblem should be considered the same.

So, is the two-headed teutonic eagle the "emblem of the United States"?



so the national emblem of Israel must be a seven branched
candelabrum; a Hanukyah -must- be a nine branched candelabrum. Quite
simply, they are not the same thing. Just like the wiccan star and the
Star of David are not the same thing.

It's a *jewish, menorah* candelabre.

And "jewish" is not the same as "israeli". And in the US, the vast
majority of people associate it with the Hanukah festival, not with the
state of Israel.

You object to placing a hanukyah on the grounds that it is the emblem
of the Israeli government. That objection is quite simply without
basis: it is NOT the emblem of the state of Israel, just like the 2
headed eagle is not the emblem of the United States, and just as the
bald eagle in the Post Officee emblem is not "the emblem of the United
States".



If you want to object to a Hanukyah display on some other grounds, go
ahead; we

Who's "we"?

That would be you and me, in a discussion about such putative
objections. It's called a dialogue, and it's called "inclusive
language". You might want to look it up.



can deal with those.

??? What do you want to make a deal about?

Who said anything about "making a deal"? I talked about "dealing with"
any putative objections you might have to a Hanukyah display that are
not based on the false assertion that it is the "emblem of Israel".

Perhaps if you took a few minutes to breathe and stop foaming at the
mouth, you might be able to perform some simple reading comprehension?



But claiming that it is "the official
emblem of the israeli government" is, quite simply, false.

A menorah candelabre IS the official Israeli state emblem, are you
saying it isn't?

Are you really that thick, or just pretending?

A menorah is, by definiion, a SEVEN BRANCH candelabrum; the emblem of
the State of Israle does in fact include a seven branch candelabrum,
i.e., a menorah.

A hanukyah, by contrast, is a NINE BRANCH candelabrum; that is what is
sometimes refered to as a "Hanukah menorah" (compound noun). The nine
branch candelabrum is NOT "the official Israeli state emblem".

See: 7 is the same as the number of fingers on one hand, plus the
number of eyes you have. By contast, 9 is the number of fingers on one
hand, plus the number of eyes, plus the number of noses, plus the
number of mouths. Seven is not the same thing as nine. A menorah is not
the same thing as a hanukyah.




Do you know any other countries who use a religious symbol used in
festivals as the national emblem?

You mean, other than all those countries that have crosses in their
flags and coat of arms? You know, like England, Switzerland, Norway,
etc.? Not that it matters.

Israel does not use a "religious symbol used in festivals". The
religious symbol used in a festival is the 9 branch candelabrum; the
symbol in the national emblem is the 7 branch candelabrum. 7 branch
candelabra are not used in religious festivals. 9 branch candelabra are
not used in the national emblem.

I would have thought it was clear. Perhaps you simly do not wish it to
be?

---
================================================== ====================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
================================================== ====================

Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org

James A. Donald wrote in message
...
"James A. Donald"
By "you guys" I mean everyone that gets so enraged
by the symbols of Christianity that they cannot even
stand symbols that are associated with the symbols
of Christianity - I mean commies, militant Jews,
radical islamists, Gaia worshippers, the usual.
Hindus, animists and ancestor worshippers somehow
never have this problem.

"Sancho Panza"
But you are saying in posts right around this one that
it is not a religious symbol.

It is not a religious symbol. It is something that
reminds you guys of a religious symbol - as I said, a
symbol of a symbol. You see the tree and think about
mangers. The fact that you are taking offense shows
that no concessions whatever can ever stop you from
being offended.

The manger is not there because we already had this
thing - people tried putting up a manger *and* a
menorah, and just got a longer queue of people
threatening lawsuits and engaging in lawsuits. So they
gave up on mangers. Now it is happening all over again
with any indications of Christmas whatsoever.

Um..... you really have wondered down the garden path with this one
James.... the thread, which you are so eager to misrepresent, is nto about
'removing trees' whether they be religious symbols or not. The facts of the
case, which you continually ignore, is that the rabbi who threatened to sue
did so because he wanted equal represetation for his religious symbols
alongside the trees. So, he thought the trees were christian symbols,
anyway. The case never reached court becasue the airport reponded by
deciding noit to have any symbols, religious, secular or ambigously
religious/secular/pagan. After the media fuss, the rabbi then withdrew his
threat of litigation and the airport put the trees back.

You,meanwhile, haver got the wrogn end of the tree and are indulging in your
usual obtusely tangental meanderings. Get a grip, man.


--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

Constantinople wrote in message
ups.com...

Anarcissie wrote:

Holidays of enforced jollity are all part of living a life of
quiet desperation. As the great Quentin Crisp said,
"When people are happy there is no need for festivities."

Witty, but as a serious statement about societies, incorrect and
perverse.


Hardly, what else were 'bread and circuses' then.......

"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...

Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and
erveyone must celebrate it or be considered a bigot
[the upshot of your "only those with a grudge against
it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely
fascist and bigoted, but just not logical.

No one must celebrate it, but any one who not only does
not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by other
people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.

I agree. I haven't heard anyone get upset or offended by anyone celebrating
Christmas. The concern in Seattle was using government funds, i.e. tax
dollars paid into the general fund, to pay for it -- particularly to the
exclusion of all other "secular" holidays that are grounded in a specific
religion's tradition.

So, who do you know that is upset and offended by anyone celebrating
Christmas?


--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

brique wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

I notice nobody asking why it is tax money has to be spent on ornaments
rather than silly things like, you know, fixing potholes or even
something
really absurd like airport security...

That attitude could help explain why socialist countries have such a
reputation for being ugly, spirit-killing places.


What........ like the Bronx and South LA ?

Did you pick average, representative places in America (in which case
you have a point) or did you cherry pick the worst places in America
you could think of (in which case you don't)?