Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport

wrote:
On 14-Dec-2006, wrote:

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.


Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel
and
denouncing anti-Semitism.

By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?

If there's a choice between displaying all religions and displaying
none - and that was ultimately the choice - then the better option is
to display none.

Which is fine, just so long as you don;t BLAME the people who only asked for
equal time.

No, the Rabbi asked for special consideration, not equal time. He asked
for his religious symbol to be displayed because Christmas symbols were
being displayed. But Christmas is the holiday therefore Christmas
symbols are appropriate.

If the Rabbi wants Hannukah to be a national holiday then let him ask
for that.

Christmas trees are nonreligious

Except for their NAME, and that they only come out AT XMAS.

So what?

Sancho Panza wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Thus there is no basis for complaint that Christmas trees and not
menorahs were displayed. To complain about such a think is like
complaining that banana trees and not orange trees were displayed.

Try to explain why one group shouuld have the right of display and another
should not.

Simple. Because one is celebrating an official national holiday and the
other is not.

Any more questions?

Sancho Panza wrote:
"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
--
"James A. Donald"
any one who not only does not celebrate it, but gets
upset and offended by other people celebrating it,
is indeed a bigot.

"Sancho Panza"
You would no doubt celebrate even more imams and
others taking out their prayer rugs and doing their
thing in the middle of a public place that you are
using.

There was no manger at the airport, nor any prayer. The
airport Christmas was carefully sanitized of anything
with the slightest connection to Christianity.

If the trees have no connection to Christianity, why do basically just
Christians use them?

Simply not true. A lot of non-Christians including members of other
religions and atheists who celebrate Christmas as a non-religious
holiday put them up.

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sancho Panza wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Thus there is no basis for complaint that Christmas trees and not
menorahs were displayed. To complain about such a think is like
complaining that banana trees and not orange trees were displayed.

Try to explain why one group shouuld have the right of display and
another
should not.

Simple. Because one is celebrating an official national holiday and the
other is not.

Any more questions?

Yes. That neglects to explain why there aren't similar decorations for New
Year's, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Veterans' Day, Columbus Day, etc etc

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

Sancho Panza wrote:
"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
--
"James A. Donald"
any one who not only does not celebrate it, but gets
upset and offended by other people celebrating it,
is indeed a bigot.

"Sancho Panza"
You would no doubt celebrate even more imams and
others taking out their prayer rugs and doing their
thing in the middle of a public place that you are
using.

There was no manger at the airport, nor any prayer. The
airport Christmas was carefully sanitized of anything
with the slightest connection to Christianity.

If the trees have no connection to Christianity, why do basically just
Christians use them?

Simply not true. A lot of non-Christians including members of other
religions and atheists who celebrate Christmas as a non-religious
holiday put them up.

With the basic intent of stimulating sales revenues from the Christians.
Macy's is a good example of that.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 22:16:26 +0000, flaviaR wrote:

On 14-Dec-2006, "Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:38:26 -0800, markzoom wrote:


Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:02:49 -0800, Laura Sanchez wrote:

Too bad Christianity doesn't return the favor.


Excuse me? It's Christians that are the only ones defending Israel
and
denouncing anti-Semitism.

By refusing to add a menorah to the airport display?

It's not just some kind of festive decoration.
The menorah is the NATIONAL EMBLEM OF THE "STATE" OF ISRAEL

NO, IT IS NOT.
The chanukiah "menorah" used at Chanukah has eight branches and one in
the middle; the Israeli Menorah has six and one in the middle. It is
distinctly
different and for a reason that bigots like markzoom will never grasp - and
on
purpose.

I wasn't aware there was a difference. But even if they were identical, it
still wouldn't matter. There are quiet plainly US citizens for whom it is
a significant symbol in their belief system and our governments have no
business sticking up one symbol and ignoring the others.

Frankly, I think this whole fiasco was a stunt by the airport people. They
expended more effort yanking trees down and throwing them back up than
they likely would have if they'd sat down with the man who objected and
worked it out. He didn't want the trees pulled down, he wanted equal
representation. Sit down with him and figure out how to do it given the
time and money constraints.

Like the
eagle is to the US!:

http://www.science.co.il/Israel-Emblem.asp

I would find it highly offensive to have an 8 foot foreign state
emblem displayed by legal imposition in my country.

Which is, of course, why no one is suggesting it.

But hey, maybe
yanks should know who their real masters are.

That's stupid.

Yes, he is.

Doesn't matter what it means in Israel, this isn't Israel.
Here, many regard it as a religious symbol. If we're going to let one
religious symbol be displayed on public property at public expense, we
should let all of them be displayed.

Exactly.

What irritates me is the airport didn't even *try. They went out of their
way to make it look like the man was being "unreasonable." He wasn't. They
were.

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Creationists criticize evolutionists for the demeaning idea
of 'coming from apes' and say that man is more noble than
that, and then have sermons where man is called a miserable
worm worthy to be burned eternally in hell."
-William Bagley

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

Sancho Panza wrote:
"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...
"James A. Donald"
But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
display of Christmas trees, not the display of
stables and mangers. You are suing against the
stuff that people see in Singapore

"Sancho Panza"
Pretty fast on the trigger with "you guys." Just what
guys do you mean?

By "you guys" I mean everyone that gets so enraged by
the symbols of Christianity that they cannot even stand
symbols that are associated with the symbols of
Christianity - I mean commies, militant Jews, radical
islamists, Gaia worshippers, the usual. Hindus,
animists and ancestor worshippers somehow never have
this problem.

But you are saying in posts right around this one that it is not a
religious
symbol. Which is it, religious or not? If it's a symbol of Christianity,
as
you say here, why should other faiths not be similarly represented?

1) A Christmas tree is not a symbol of Christianity, it's a symbol of a
national holiday.

Other holidays, maybe with the exception of Thanksgiving, don't have
symbols. And nowhere is the tree designated as the symbol of the holiday.

2) Other faiths aren't relevant because of that fact.

Of course they are. They have nothing to do with the tree.

3) Christmas is the holiday, not Kwanzaa or Ramadan or anything else.

You're coming close to making an argument that Christmas should no longer be
designated as a holiday. Scalia and Souter, among the others, would probably
love to engage in that debate.

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
oups.com...

Sancho Panza wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
On 13-Dec-2006, " wrote:

James A. Donald wrote:
But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
display of Christmas trees

Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in
SEATAC?\

Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.

???? Did you think that Christmas trees should be brought out on the
4th of July?

There is an undoubtedly religious side to Christmas. Trees are not
part
of that. Trees are part of the secular side. The Rabbi complained
about
trees.

The rabbi didn't complain about the trees. He made a request for his own
display. Quite a difference there.

No. He made a request for his own display AND THEN THREATENED TO SUE TO
TAKE DOWN THE TREES if his request wasn't met.

Not originally. Only after the Christians and the media went full blast.

"Ricky" wrote in message
ups.com...
Okay.

Um, what does this have to do with abortion?

Sound of Trumpet wrote:
http://www.towardtradition.org/index.cfm?PAGE_ID=235



12.11.2006 Jews Strive to Restore Christmas Trees


Jews Strive to Restore Sea-Tac Airport's Christmas Trees

By Rabbi Daniel Lapin



Well here we go again. It is so utterly predictable. Like clockwork.
It's December and time for another skirmish in the annual battle
against Christmas. What compels me to comment is that this time it's
not the usual secular fanatic who's responsible for doing things that
evict Christianity from the culture. No, on this sad and alarming
occasion it's a deeply religious, well-intentioned rabbi who has
unwittingly stumbled into a situation that will place his denomination
(and mine)-Orthodox Judaism-in a terrible, negative light.

For at least ten years, Sea-Tac Airport near Seattle has displayed
several large, beautifully decorated Christmas trees each December.
With lawyer in tow, a local rabbi recently threatened to sue the Port
of Seattle if the airport didn't add a Chanukah menorah to the holiday
display.

Yielding to the ultimatum was not an option for airport management,
skittish at the best of times since 9-11. Understandably, they
interpreted the rabbi's threat as only the first. It would not be
hard to imagine Seattle's Islamic community stepping forward with
their own lawyer to demand a Moslem symbol be included as well.

With deft turn of phrase, Sea-Tac public affairs manager Terri-Ann
Betancourt explained that at the busiest travel time of the year, while
Sea-Tac was focused on getting passengers through the airport, she and
her staff didn't have time "to play cultural anthropologists."

Threatening a lawsuit, I feel, violates the Jewish principle known in
Hebrew as Kiddush HaShem, interpreted in the Talmud, part of ancient
Jewish wisdom, as an action that encourages people to admire Jews. One
need only read the comments on the Internet following the news accounts
of the tree removal, to know that most people are feeling indignant and
hurt. They certainly are not feeling more warmly toward Jews as a
result of this mess.

Here I disclose that I know the rabbi involved, am friendly with him,
and am sure that he didn't intend this outcome. I like him, which
makes it painful for me to point out that when one throws a punch
(which is what bringing a lawyer and threatening to sue is equivalent
to) and one gets decked in return, one cannot plead that one didn't
intend that outcome.

The outcome, whether intended or not, is that now vast numbers of
passengers, most of whom are probably Christian, will be deprived of
the cheerful holiday sight of pretty Christmas trees. What is more,
they will know that their deprivation was caused by a Jewish rabbi.
The rabbi's lawyer told a television reporter, "There is a concern
here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch."

No, Mr. Lawyer, it is not that Jews will be "portrayed" as the
grinch. Sadly, now we are the grinch. You made us the grinch.

Now what is to be done? I have three requests:

I am asking every reader of this column to sign a petition on the
Toward Tradition website beseeching Sea-Tac management to restore the
Christmas trees.

I am asking every reader of this column to forward it to others who
might be willing to sign this petition.

I am asking Jews in the Puget Sound region to join national radio host,
Michael Medved, and me in offering our volunteer labor to Sea-Tac. We
hope they will allow us to provide the labor necessary for replacing
the trees so that airport staff need not be deflected from their
important duties.

Why am I, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, so concerned about a few Christmas
trees? Not for a moment do I believe that American Christians will
react to this insult with a flurry of anti-Semitic activity. But I do
feel certain that perhaps in some small way, expelling Christmas
symbolism from the airport makes it just a little harder to protect
America's Christian nature.

For centuries, we Jews suffered in a Europe governed by ecclesiastical
authority. We suffered no less under the secular tyrannies of
communism. Now, in post-Christian Europe, where both government and
population are increasingly secular, anti-Semitism is dramatically on
the rise. In short, we have never thrived under religious government
or within secular cultures.

During the past two thousand years of Jewish history Jews have never
enjoyed a more hospitable home than we enjoy here in the United States
of America.

This is because we have a religiously neutral government and a largely
religious Christian population. Most American Christians love Jews and
support Israel unconditionally because of their commitment to the Bible
and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Evidence from across the
Atlantic persuades me that our lot will deteriorate if America's
population gradually becomes secularized and removing the Christmas
trees makes that disturbing likelihood, over time, more probable. Yes,
public symbols are very important.

Years ago we Jews advocated for full equality. Today, with thirteen
Jewish United States senators, over thirty Jewish congressmen, two Jews
on the Supreme Court, and disproportionate Jewish representation in
media and entertainment, one could reasonably say we have achieved it.
But back then, the only culture in America was Christian. Today,
however, America is home to many faiths, not all of them friendly
towards Judaism.

Today, agitating for Jewish religious representation in the culture
inevitably results not in equating Judaism with Christianity but the
removal of both Judaism and Christianity. In other words, pushing for
the menorah means removal of the Christmas tree and the triumph of
secularism. Europe, both past and present, teaches us that if America
becomes secularized, Jews suffer.

For fifteen years I have insisted that for Jews to oppose Christianity
in America is a mistake. The world today is populated by millions who
harbor festering hatred for Jews. There remains one group of people
who love and support us and they are America's Evangelical
Christians. What possible sense does it make to fight your friends by
stripping their symbols from sight?

And the converse should hold, too.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:43:29 -0800, Constantinople wrote:

brique wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Mark K. Bilbo wrote:

I notice nobody asking why it is tax money has to be spent on ornaments
rather than silly things like, you know, fixing potholes or even
something
really absurd like airport security...

That attitude could help explain why socialist countries have such a
reputation for being ugly, spirit-killing places.


What........ like the Bronx and South LA ?

Did you pick average, representative places in America (in which case
you have a point) or did you cherry pick the worst places in America
you could think of (in which case you don't)?

With something over half our population packed into cities, the Bronx and
South LA rather *are representative these days...

--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
If their omnipotent, omniscient (so they say) god wants me to
believe in him, then he should know what would prove his
existence to me. He hasn't done so yet, so there is no reason
to believe in him.
-Woden