Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport

"James A. Donald"
If the Airport had put up a bloody great crucifix
instead of Christmas trees, you could *then* ask for
a menorah to balance it, and could *still*
reasonably be rejected on the grounds that if we put
up a menorah, we would soon have to put up two
hundred and seventeen national flags.

"Sancho Panza"
If someone insists on flaunting their ignorance so be
it. But as has been posted here quite a few times
already, the Hanukah candelabrum is different from the
Israeli candelabra.

The difference is too slight to notice at a casual
glance.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

On 14-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:

Try to explain why one group shouuld have the right of display and
another
should not.

Simple. Because one is celebrating an official national holiday and the
other is not.

Any more questions?

Yes. That neglects to explain why there aren't similar decorations for New
Year's, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Veterans' Day, Columbus Day, etc etc

And it also begs the question of why we violate our Constitution
with a "National Holiday" that is clearly religious in nature.
So when we finally get Xmas undeclared a national holiday,
we all know who the outraged Xians will have to thank for bringing
the injustice & violation to our attention.

Susan

On 14-Dec-2006, "Mark K. Bilbo" wrote:

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:36:56 -0800, markzoom wrote:


In a way that would be victory for the zionist Rabbi too.... and a blow
to freedom.

Not having tax funded blinky lights on plastic trees is a "blow to
freedom?"

Maybe to kooks...

Certainly to those who expose themselves and their
politics so thoroughly as markzoom. Or did you miss
what he called the rabbi....? I left it in, above....

Susan

On 14-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:

It is also a nationalist symbol.

No, it isn't - this has been covered.

Nationalism is
confrontational and excursionist. Christmas trees are
not.

If the Airport had put up a bloody great crucifix
instead of Christmas trees, you could *then* ask for a
menorah to balance it,

Except for the fact that the courts who have said the trees are secular
have also said the same about the menorah (or, to be more accurate,
since therehas been a deliberate attempt to blur the two, the chanukiah).

and could *still* reasonably be
rejected on the grounds that if we put up a menorah, we
would soon have to put up two hundred and seventeen
national flags.

If someone insists on flaunting their ignorance so be it.

And in direct answer to several posts explaining where he is wrong.

But as has been
posted here quite a few times already, the Hanukah candelabrum is
different
from the Israeli candelabra. Of course, stubborness and prejudice may
delay
this simple understanding.


Judaism really does not quite fit into the American
model of separation of church and state, because America
is a nation state, and judaism is both religion and
nationalism. Islam, of course, violently contradicts
the American model of separation of church and state,
since separation of church and state is a violation of
Islam.

You no doubt would feel more comfortable with tax-supported Christian
schools and similar programs.

Which is what we have here.
Ooops.

In consequence, the policy of treating Judaism
and Islam as if they were Christian religious sects does
not really work, and this unpleasant confrontation over
a christmas display that had been carefully purged of
the slightest religious element is an indication of
that.

If someone insists on falling over one's arguments, including theological
abstractions, in wide-ranging public forums, so be it again. It will be
curious to see whether anyone can make sense of the above statement.

I have, but not that which he intended people to make.

Susan

"James A. Donald"
shows that you guys are entirely unappeasable, that
no concession will suffice, that any concession
merely strengthens demands for further concessions.


That would be you, actually. You are the only one who
keeps teling this lie.

You demanded a menorah be included, and expressed
outrage when you heard that some people spontaneously
included menorahs

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald

On 14-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:


"James A. Donald" wrote in message
...


There was no manger at the airport, nor any prayer. The
airport Christmas was carefully sanitized of anything
with the slightest connection to Christianity.

If the trees have no connection to Christianity, why do basically just
Christians use them?

And why are they only brought out at Xmas?

Susan

On 14-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...


If the trees have no connection to Christianity, why do basically just
Christians use them?

Simply not true. A lot of non-Christians including members of other
religions and atheists who celebrate Christmas as a non-religious
holiday put them up.

With the basic intent of stimulating sales revenues from the Christians.
Macy's is a good example of that.

The other point is that this "logic" is like saying that since there
are more members of the phony Kabbalah Kult out in California
than rabbis who actually learn the real thing that this means that
the Kabbalah is no longer what the rabbis learn, but what the cult
pushes.

Susan

On 14-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:

wrote in message
ups.com...


The vast majority of americans identify the candelabrum (7- or
9-branched) with Hanukah, not with the state of Israel. They call both
"menorah" (the former correclty, the latter incorrectly), and usually
misidentify a 7 branched candelabrum as a Hanukyah and think
"Hanukah". Few are aware of the difference, and the overwhelming
association is that of the holiday, not the political association
(exactly the opposite of the shubhtika, where most people will
misidentify it as political rather than religious). In any case, you
claimed that the 9-branch candelabrum -is- the "national emblem of
the "State" of Israel". And that is, quite simply, false. Explain it
away all you want now, you were still wrong.

Liar.

Explaining how he's wrong makes you a liar??

I never specified the amount of bloody candles of any menorah,

Which wasn't exactly the point of your post, but....

so I am
not wrong about any number.

Actually, he is BECAUSE he didn't specify ---

It's a menorah wether it's got seven or nine candles.

- because this is not so.
You explain it beautifully above.


How about 5 or 11 or 13 or 25?

As if he won't say whatever comes into his "head" to support his hatred.

Susan

On 14-Dec-2006, "PTravel" wrote:

James A. Donald" wrote in message
...

Your insistence that "Christmas is now secular and
erveyone must celebrate it or be considered a bigot
[the upshot of your "only those with a grudge against
it don;t celebrate it" post] " is not only insanely
fascist and bigoted, but just not logical.

No one must celebrate it, but any one who not only does
not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by other
people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.

I agree. I haven't heard anyone get upset or offended by anyone
celebrating
Christmas. The concern in Seattle was using government funds, i.e. tax
dollars paid into the general fund, to pay for it

I should have realized this was part of it.
Good grief.

-- particularly to the
exclusion of all other "secular" holidays that are grounded in a specific
religion's tradition.

So, who do you know that is upset and offended by anyone celebrating
Christmas?

No one.
But he sure is pretending otherwise.

Susan

On 14-Dec-2006, "PTravel" wrote:

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
On 13-Dec-2006, " wrote:

James A. Donald wrote:
But you guys are trying to suppress even the secular
aspects of Christmas - you were suing against the
display of Christmas trees

Who was suing against what display of Xmas trees? The ones in
SEATAC?\

Even if anyone was - which no one is doing - the proof
that the trees and all the other attendent crap really is NOT
secular is that it is ONLY brought out AT XMAStime.

???? Did you think that Christmas trees should be brought out on the
4th of July?

There is an undoubtedly religious side to Christmas. Trees are not part
of that. Trees are part of the secular side. The Rabbi complained about
trees. He was picking a fight, simple as that. If the airport was
putting up pictures of baby Jesus with a halo or something like that I
could understand. I'm not saying I would agree but at least the
complaint (and the complaints of others in this thread) would make
sense. But claiming that a Christmas tree is not secular is simply
nonsense.

Even granting that the Christmas tree is secular (and I don't believe that

it is), it is definitely not all-sectarian. Yes, the Christmas tree, per
se, is not a religious symbol in the same sense as a cross or a creche (or

Jewish star). It is, however, part of the traditions and culture of a
specific religion -- Christmas trees certainly play no part in the
heritage
of non-Christian religions. The point, which no one seems to get, is
that,
though the majority of Americans have a Christian heritage and tradition,
that does not mean that Christian culture and tradition is synonymous with

American culture and tradition. The objection is not to Christians or
Christmas, but to the assumption that, because it is the predominant
culture
in the U.S., it is a universal culture. America, by definition, is
non-sectarian, per the First Amendment. However, the First Amendment has
been construed (in cases like Lynch) to mean "all sectarian." It that's
what the Establishment Clause is going to mean, then we should be
all-sectarian, which is most-decidedly does not mean, "only the largest
sect."

Christmas trees are not universal. They are not part of the culture,
heritage and traditions of those Americans that whose families, ancestors,
backgrounds and beliefs are other than Christian. Are Christmas trees
secular? Perhaps, depending on how you define the term. Are they all- or
non-sectarian symbols? Absolutely not.

VERY well put.


It would be less disgusting if they were just honest about it.

Christmas trees are disgusting????

I would say he's just illiterate, if I wasn;t sure that he was deliberately
misconstruing it ----

Anti-Christian bigotry, AFAIC.

--- and this is proof of that.

Susan