What is the best country to visit in Europe?

"Vitaly Shmatikov" schreef in bericht
...
In article ,
Dave Smith wrote:

It most certainly does apply to France. It is a beautiful country. I have
driven
through quite a bit of the French country side was was very much
impressed. We
had great food with only a few disappointing meals. The cheap wine was
nothing
to write home about but we had some excellent wines too.

It all depends on your reference point. Comparing with Molvania
or Canada or some such, yeah, I suppose in France one can find
edible food every now and then, a bit of landscape here and there,
and, provided one is willing to plunk down $100 or more, good wine.
But comparing with the U.S., Latin America, most of Asia, or, hell,
even Spain, France is not in the running on any of these counts.


You must be joking or you must have been to Roubaix only. Have you been to
the Gorges du Verdon, the French Alps, the French Pyrenees, the Ardeche, the
Provence, the Alsace, le Massif Central, the Loire Valley with its castles,
Bretagne, etc., etc.? On a much smaller surface area France has as much
variety in landscape as the US, and *much*, *much* more culture and *many*,
*many* more interesting cities to visit. And better wines, too. We have a
proverb in Dutch describing the perfect life: "Living like God in France."

Sjoerd

"Vitaly Shmatikov" schreef in bericht
...
In article 1gbyg78.1gzz9h8zncly2N%this_address_is_for_spam@y ahoo.co.uk,
David Horne wrote:

Well, Cathedrals are a matter of taste. I enjoy the older ones, not
least because you witness the religion that, for good and evil, was
instrumental in shaping the world which most of the developed world now
inhabits.

One cathedral is a breathtaking experience. Three cathedrals is
an amusing study in variation and evolution of architecture and the
religious idea. A vacation consisting of visiting several European
towns, each complete with a cathedral and a few cutesy faux-medieval
streets, is my idea of a cruel and unusual punishment.

As for being close-minded, that's odd. Admittedly, I've only been to
Egypt, but I'm hard-pressed to think of any definition of 'open-minded'
where anywhere in Arica would really trump France. What country does-
seriously?

I didn't mean to compare France with Africa, except as a vacation
destination. The open-mindedness comment was about France vs. the US.
In one of last year's flamewars on the subject, Mxsmanic,

Mxsmanic will write everything to stir up emotions. His posts can not be
taken seriously.


of all people,
really put his finger on it. Lessee if I can google it up...

Europeans are cheap. They won't spend money on air conditioning. They
have a low standard of living and don't care. They consider poverty
holy and good, and wealth evil and bad. They consider comfort a
temptation of Satan, and misery a testament to nobility. They consider
success decadent, and the status quo and "knowing one's place" right
and
proper. They are their own worst enemies, and they are their own
greatest obstacles to progress and happiness.

I think he is right on the money, especially the ``knowing one's place''
bit. That's what will forever doom Europeans to being second-rate in
everything they do.

And in the process Europeans have created societies (some European
countries) that have created a higher standard of living than anywhere else
in the world. Look at the Human Development Index list and European
countries make up 15 or so of the top 20 countries.




I wouldn't want to live anywhere in Africa, that's for sure,
and I wouldn't say that about France. (Well, I'm happy in the UK- I have
no desire to move _to_ France, but you get the point.)

I wouldn't want to live in Africa, either, but I think Africa is a
much more exciting vacation destination than France. I guess when
I travel for pleasure, as opposed to business, I prefer experiences
that are very different from my everyday life. It boggles the mind
that some people would fly all the way from California to France for
a vacation, when they got Mexico next door - a much more interesting
and exotic country than France.

I actually agree with you that if you want an exotic vacation one shouldn't
go to Europe (that is, if you are from a developed Western country. We just
had a group of 6 Vietnamese business friends visiting us and they found
Amsterdam very exotic, I can assure you!)
But one a relatively small landmass Europe has much, much more to see and
much more variety than North America, which must be the most boring and
homogeneous continent of all.

Sjoerd

AJC wrote:

Yes, if you live in the UK everything everywhere else in Europe is
going to be good value!

Not much help to the visitor, but once you know where to find them, you
can get very reasonable prices for almost anything.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:

I didn't mean to compare France with Africa, except as a vacation
destination. The open-mindedness comment was about France vs. the US.
In one of last year's flamewars on the subject, Mxsmanic, of all people,
really put his finger on it. Lessee if I can google it up...

Europeans are cheap. They won't spend money on air conditioning. They
have a low standard of living and don't care. They consider poverty
holy and good, and wealth evil and bad. They consider comfort a
temptation of Satan, and misery a testament to nobility. They consider
success decadent, and the status quo and "knowing one's place" right and
proper. They are their own worst enemies, and they are their own
greatest obstacles to progress and happiness.

I'd argue that this exhibits the close-mindedness you complain about,
though. That is, Mxsmanic imposes what _his_ notion of 'good standard of
living is' yet I don't think he makes a compelling case that Europeans
_are_ in fact living miserably. The absense of A/C and, a particular bee
in my bonnet, insect screens on windows, doesn't mean that people live
in misery. From the UK/US point of view, it's hard for me to see that
one society lives worse than another- they are just different, and I
don't see people on mainland Europe living in any worse conditions.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
In article ,
Paolo Pizzi wrote:

Everything I hear suggests that, by and large, Iraqis are
very happy to be rid of Saddam, the current troubles
notwithstanding.

Maybe because everything you hear is censored bull****...

I see. Everything I hear is censored bull****, whereas everything
*you* hear is an objective statement of fact. Just how arrogant can
you guys get?

I read international news, you probably get all your news from
Limbaugh and Faux News. It's not a matter of arrogance but
one of lack of information.

devil wrote:
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 03:01:25 +0000, Paolo Pizzi wrote:

Dave Smith wrote:

As opposed to a quasi government to enrich oil companies?

Does anybody remember when last year the Bush administration
declared that the invasion of Iraq would bring much more stable
gas prices? How ironic!! Don't tell me, we were LIED again...

The only thing it brought was HUGE profits for the oil companies.
But that's what Dubya really wanted, all the rest was BS.

Actually the price of oil *has been pretty stable.*

Not the price of gas. The scumbag oil companies have been
jacking up the price because Dumbya doesn't want to release
any part of the reserves, this way his friends get richer and
contribute more money to his campaign.

Then of course OPEC started to make some noise: "hey, if you
guys have decided to rip people off, we want a cut too..." and
so they decided to cut production.

Way to go W...

In article ,
Sjoerd wrote:

You must be joking or you must have been to Roubaix only. Have you been to
the Gorges du Verdon, the French Alps, the French Pyrenees, the Ardeche, the
Provence, the Alsace, le Massif Central, the Loire Valley with its castles,
Bretagne, etc., etc.?

Of these, Bretagne is the only one I have *not* been to. And Roubaix.

On a much smaller surface area France has as much
variety in landscape as the US

Yeah, sure. As much variety as Yellowstone, Everglades, Inside
passage, Bryce Canyon, Great Lakes, Mojave desert, and two oceans.

and *much*, *much* more culture

What a joke. The US is a dynamic, diverse country, which has the
entire range of culture from the best classical orchestras in the
world to street culture that is followed and emulated all over the
place, France included. France has been culturally dead since WWI.

Even French art museums are inferior, since they sold their best pieces
to Americans or did not appreciate them until too late - ever wondered
why the Barnes Collection has more Cezannes than d'Orsay, and how
come _Les Demoiselles d'Avignon_ is in MOMA? Ever noticed that the
best French orchestras (like Orchestre National de Lyon) are directed
by Americans? Why do you think French kids parrot American fashions?

and *many*,
*many* more interesting cities to visit.

I'll take *Houston* over any provincial French city as far as vitality
is concerned any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Your obsessive America-bashing is so predictable, Sjoerd, it's not
even funny anymore.

We have a
proverb in Dutch describing the perfect life: "Living like God in France."

This says more about the Dutch than about France.

Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:

Ever noticed that the
best French orchestras (like Orchestre National de Lyon) are directed
by Americans?

Oh, I wouldn't play _that_ particular card. The principle US orchestras
are _rarely_ directed by Americans- indeed, usually the exception, not
the rule.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

In article ,
Sjoerd wrote:

And in the process Europeans have created societies (some European
countries) that have created a higher standard of living than anywhere else
in the world. Look at the Human Development Index list and European
countries make up 15 or so of the top 20 countries.

Human Development Index is bunk. It measures ``gender empowerment,''
community activities, income equality, and similar nonsense.
Ideal societies are *un*equal because people are unequal. Some are
smarter and better than others, and deserve a much better quality
of life. Any society that values ``human development'' over provision
of economic opportunities and just laws will end up oppressing its
brightest and most talented members and supporting a bunch of bums,
losers and layabouts. Europe is exhibit #1.

But one a relatively small landmass Europe has much, much more to see and
much more variety than North America, which must be the most boring and
homogeneous continent of all.

Typical arrogant European's comment. Try to get out more, Sjoerd,
and start traveling, preferably with your eyes open. The difference
between Alabama and San Francisco, or between Boston and Alaska is an
order of magnitude greater than, say, between Portugal and Finland,
in just about every respect except language.

In article 1gbyz2k.1m8o7761e6g9j6N%this_address_is_for_spam@ yahoo.co.uk,
David Horne wrote:

Ever noticed that the
best French orchestras (like Orchestre National de Lyon) are directed
by Americans?

Oh, I wouldn't play _that_ particular card. The principle US orchestras
are _rarely_ directed by Americans- indeed, usually the exception, not
the rule.

True. But they aren't directed by the French

In any case, this business about France having ``much, much more
culture'' than the US is simply yet another instance of knee-jerk
America-bashing which is one of the less endearing European traits.
I don't know how to measure culture, but unless it involves counting
500-year-old outhouses, it's ludicrous to suggest that France has more
cultural impact than the US these days, whether we are talking high
culture or low culture.