Where is this place in France?

In her book, "Three Rivers of France," Freda White writes

"But those who are interested [in seeing pre-Roman Gaullic sites] ought
to go to the Villes-des-Mur -- Murcen -- on the River Vers, which runs
into the Lot east of Cahors. There, in the loneliest region of the
Causse de Gramat, the fortifications of a Gaulish city have survived
almost completely."

I know where the Vers River is, but have been unable to locate any
information about the site Ms. White references. Does anybody have any
information about this, or a more accurate location for it?

Thanks,
John

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:52:17 -0700, John Zumsteg wrote:

In her book, "Three Rivers of France," Freda White writes

"But those who are interested [in seeing pre-Roman Gaullic sites] ought
to go to the Villes-des-Mur -- Murcen -- on the River Vers, which runs
into the Lot east of Cahors. There, in the loneliest region of the
Causse de Gramat, the fortifications of a Gaulish city have survived
almost completely."

I know where the Vers River is, but have been unable to locate any
information about the site Ms. White references. Does anybody have any
information about this, or a more accurate location for it?

From http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/01/davison.htm:

"Not far north of Pech-Merle, just short of a little village named Cras, lies a
later relic of human society: traces of the Gaulish enclosed settlement known as
the oppidum of Murcens, claimed by some to be the site of Uxellodunum, where in
52 B.C. Julius Caesar defeated the great chieftain Vercingetorix and, to
discourage further opposition by the contumacious Gauls, chopped off the right
hands of 6,000 warriors, thus eliminating Gaulish resistance to the Pax Romana.
Very little physical evidence remains to hint at the sort of life the Gauls led
in pre-Roman times. Pastures are still available for twenty-first-century
cattle, and a few stone farmhouses stand where the countryside would expect them
to. Archaeologists have excavated remnants of a long, broad wall, called the
murus gallicus, which is thought to have surrounded parts of the settlement,
enclosing the human population as well as its cattle. By Caesar's time the
tribes of Gaul had retired from their nomadic existence to graze their herds in
one place and to plant and cultivate their crops behind natural redoubts and the
artificial defenses of the wall."

-- Larry

Larry,
Thanks for this information. I've found some other references (seems as
if there's a competition among villages of the area to claim themselves
as the site of Uxellodunum) but yours is the first to give me a better
location.

Thanks.
John

pltrgyst wrote:
On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:52:17 -0700, John Zumsteg wrote:

In her book, "Three Rivers of France," Freda White writes

"But those who are interested [in seeing pre-Roman Gaullic sites] ought
to go to the Villes-des-Mur -- Murcen -- on the River Vers, which runs
into the Lot east of Cahors. There, in the loneliest region of the
Causse de Gramat, the fortifications of a Gaulish city have survived
almost completely."

I know where the Vers River is, but have been unable to locate any
information about the site Ms. White references. Does anybody have any
information about this, or a more accurate location for it?

From http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/01/davison.htm:

"Not far north of Pech-Merle, just short of a little village named Cras, lies a
later relic of human society: traces of the Gaulish enclosed settlement known as
the oppidum of Murcens, claimed by some to be the site of Uxellodunum, where in
52 B.C. Julius Caesar defeated the great chieftain Vercingetorix and, to
discourage further opposition by the contumacious Gauls, chopped off the right
hands of 6,000 warriors, thus eliminating Gaulish resistance to the Pax Romana.
Very little physical evidence remains to hint at the sort of life the Gauls led
in pre-Roman times. Pastures are still available for twenty-first-century
cattle, and a few stone farmhouses stand where the countryside would expect them
to. Archaeologists have excavated remnants of a long, broad wall, called the
murus gallicus, which is thought to have surrounded parts of the settlement,
enclosing the human population as well as its cattle. By Caesar's time the
tribes of Gaul had retired from their nomadic existence to graze their herds in
one place and to plant and cultivate their crops behind natural redoubts and the
artificial defenses of the wall."

-- Larry

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:52:06 -0700, John Zumsteg wrote:

Larry,
Thanks for this information. I've found some other references (seems as
if there's a competition among villages of the area to claim themselves
as the site of Uxellodunum) but yours is the first to give me a better
location.

You're welcome. Cras is easy to get to. I also note that just west of Cabrerets,
toward Cras, there's the "Grottes de Pech Merle" and the Musee de la
Prehistoire. The museum might be able to give you more accurate and detailed
information.

-- Larry

Larry,
I sent the reference you cited and the original from Freda White to a
French friend of mine and asked if he knew of it. He sent back a map
segment showing "Oppidium de Mursens," a couple hundred yards off the
Cahors - Figeac road where a road branches off to Cras. Google Earth
does not have high resolution images there, but even with the lower
resolution,it's quite clear where this place is. We will definitely
visit it, and the museum you mention, on our September trip to the region.

Again, thanks so much for your help, Larry. You definitely pointed me in
the right direction.

Would you like pictures from the site when we visit? I'd be glad to send
you some.

John

pltrgyst wrote:
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:52:06 -0700, John Zumsteg wrote:

Larry,
Thanks for this information. I've found some other references (seems as
if there's a competition among villages of the area to claim themselves
as the site of Uxellodunum) but yours is the first to give me a better
location.

You're welcome. Cras is easy to get to. I also note that just west of Cabrerets,
toward Cras, there's the "Grottes de Pech Merle" and the Musee de la
Prehistoire. The museum might be able to give you more accurate and detailed
information.

-- Larry

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:33:30 -0700, John Zumsteg wrote:

Larry,
I sent the reference you cited and the original from Freda White to a
French friend of mine and asked if he knew of it. He sent back a map
segment showing "Oppidium de Mursens," a couple hundred yards off the
Cahors - Figeac road where a road branches off to Cras. Google Earth
does not have high resolution images there, but even with the lower
resolution,it's quite clear where this place is. We will definitely
visit it, and the museum you mention, on our September trip to the region.

Again, thanks so much for your help, Larry. You definitely pointed me in
the right direction.

Would you like pictures from the site when we visit? I'd be glad to send
you some.

You're welcome, and yes, please! We will definitely plan to visit these sites on
our next vacation to France. Especially since Cahors is our favorite wine... 8

Enjoy the trip!

Thanks -- Larry

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:39:20 -0400, pltrgyst wroteÂ*:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:33:30 -0700, John Zumsteg
wrote:

Larry,
I sent the reference you cited and the original from Freda White to a
French friend of mine and asked if he knew of it. He sent back a map
segment showing "Oppidium de Mursens," a couple hundred yards off the
Cahors - Figeac road where a road branches off to Cras. Google Earth
does not have high resolution images there, but even with the lower
resolution,it's quite clear where this place is. We will definitely
visit it, and the museum you mention, on our September trip to the
region.

Again, thanks so much for your help, Larry. You definitely pointed me in
the right direction.

Would you like pictures from the site when we visit? I'd be glad to send
you some.

You're welcome, and yes, please! We will definitely plan to visit these
sites on our next vacation to France. Especially since Cahors is our
favorite wine... 8

Enjoy the trip!

Thanks -- Larry

Pech Merle Web site reference
http://www.pechmerle.com/index.html

Nearby
http://www.saint-cirqlapopie.com/en/index.htm

Lot and Cele (use babelfish.altavista.com to translate)

http://www.quercy-tourisme.com/lot-cele

http://www.tourisme-lot.com/us/

More detailed than google earth
http://www.geoportail.fr/visu2D.do?ter=metropole
In aller Ã* type : 46079 CRAS

you can superpose photo and maps.