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  #421  
Old October 13th, 2003, 05:30 PM
Padraig Breathnach
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Default Nice Ugly Americans

"Miss L. Toe" wrote:

"me" wrote in message
. com...


However, if one wants to discuss specific freedoms, probably the
one that strikes me most often is the number of countries that all
a fair amount of control over their press institutions. All sorts of
things one "can't print" in various countries. I also understand
one can't insult a civil servant in Germany. I suspect the freedom
of speech clause would probably prevent such a law here.


So - You've got the freedom to insult someone ? - Great !
And they, obviously, have the freedom to carry a gun :-)

I do like consistency!

--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
  #422  
Old October 13th, 2003, 05:54 PM
Hatunen
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:11:59 +0100, "Miss L. Toe"
wrote:

"me" wrote in message
. com...


However, if one wants to discuss specific freedoms, probably the
one that strikes me most often is the number of countries that all
a fair amount of control over their press institutions. All sorts of
things one "can't print" in various countries. I also understand
one can't insult a civil servant in Germany. I suspect the freedom
of speech clause would probably prevent such a law here.


So - You've got the freedom to insult someone ? - Great !
And they, obviously, have the freedom to carry a gun :-)

Insulting politicians is a great American pastime. And the right
to openly accuse them of inappropriate or illegal conduct is at
times a great thing indeed. Laws of lese majeste are easily
invoked to hide misbehavior.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #424  
Old October 13th, 2003, 06:43 PM
Miguel Cruz
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Desmond Coughlan wrote:
I also understand one can't insult a civil servant in Germany.


Nor in France: 7,500 EUR fine, or the same plus six months in prison for
'rebellion' [2].


How do laws like this work? What if I point out a subjective matter which is
derotagory to the person, like "you are ugly" and I'm prepared to back it up
with a survey of popular attitudes towards the person's appearance? What if
I say they're not very good at their job? What if I say "you're quite tall"
and they take that as an insult because they always wanted to be short?

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
  #425  
Old October 13th, 2003, 07:03 PM
Desmond Coughlan
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le Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:43:32 GMT, dans l'article , Miguel Cruz a dit ...

I also understand one can't insult a civil servant in Germany.


Nor in France: 7,500 EUR fine, or the same plus six months in prison for
'rebellion' [2].


How do laws like this work? What if I point out a subjective matter which is
derotagory to the person, like "you are ugly" and I'm prepared to back it up
with a survey of popular attitudes towards the person's appearance? What if
I say they're not very good at their job? What if I say "you're quite tall"
and they take that as an insult because they always wanted to be short?


There's a difference between expressing an opinion, and insulting, IMHO.
Most people who get their collars felt for the above, are of the kind who
get stopped for speeding, and call the cop 'un pauvre con' [1], or who go
to the local social security office, get told that they're not getting any
money that day, and start screaming that the lady behind the counter is
'une sale pute' [2].

The view in French law is that people who serve the state, don't deserve to
be on the receiving end of such abuse. I find it hard to disagree, but as
an aside, there's nothing stopping any private citizen bringing a case
against someone, for having called them any of the above. The penalties
are lower, of course [3], but it's technically possible.

[1] a f*****g arsehole
[2] a dirty whore
[3] law of 29 July 1881
--
Desmond Coughlan |desmond [at] zeouane [dot] org
http://www.zeouane.org/
  #426  
Old October 13th, 2003, 07:13 PM
Hatunen
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On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 20:03:49 +0200, Desmond Coughlan
wrote:

le Mon, 13 Oct 2003 17:43:32 GMT, dans l'article , Miguel Cruz a dit ...

I also understand one can't insult a civil servant in Germany.


Nor in France: 7,500 EUR fine, or the same plus six months in prison for
'rebellion' [2].


How do laws like this work? What if I point out a subjective matter which is
derotagory to the person, like "you are ugly" and I'm prepared to back it up
with a survey of popular attitudes towards the person's appearance? What if
I say they're not very good at their job? What if I say "you're quite tall"
and they take that as an insult because they always wanted to be short?


There's a difference between expressing an opinion, and insulting, IMHO.


Unfortunately, politicians and civil servants tend to get the two
confused themselves.

Most people who get their collars felt for the above, are of the kind who
get stopped for speeding, and call the cop 'un pauvre con' [1], or who go
to the local social security office, get told that they're not getting any
money that day, and start screaming that the lady behind the counter is
'une sale pute' [2].


Nonsense. Although it certainly happens, even here in the USA
where one can be severely inconvenienced if one feels inclined to
insult the cop who has stopped him in traffic.

The view in French law is that people who serve the state, don't deserve to
be on the receiving end of such abuse.


You have just struck on a fundamental difference with the USA. In
the USA politicians, civil servants, and even the police are
assumed to serve the public, not the state. This results in an
entirely different political philosophy. Famously, the motto on
the side of police cars in Los Angeles is "To serve and protect",
and it's not govverment officials who are supposed to be the
served and protected. Needless to say, this is sometimes more
observed in teh breach than teh ovservance, but it still
underlies how it is supposed to work.

I find it hard to disagree, but as
an aside, there's nothing stopping any private citizen bringing a case
against someone, for having called them any of the above. The penalties
are lower, of course [3], but it's technically possible.


The US Supreme Court definitively ruled a couple of decades ago
that public figures have less protection against defamation than
the general public, the more public, the less protection.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
  #427  
Old October 13th, 2003, 07:18 PM
JohnT
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"Miguel Cruz" wrote in message
...
Desmond Coughlan wrote:
I also understand one can't insult a civil servant in Germany.


Nor in France: 7,500 EUR fine, or the same plus six months in prison

for
'rebellion' [2].


How do laws like this work? What if I point out a subjective matter

which is
derotagory to the person, like "you are ugly" and I'm prepared to back

it up
with a survey of popular attitudes towards the person's appearance?

What if
I say they're not very good at their job? What if I say "you're quite

tall"
and they take that as an insult because they always wanted to be

short?

miguel
--


You gotta be more subtle:

"When I see you, time stands still" = "you have a face which would stop
a clock".
"With respect" = "you are a liar".
"With great respect" = "You are an inveterate liar". etc etc etc

Suggesting that someone is not very good at their job is not necessarily
regarded as an insult.

(Mixy will probably respond to this in his usual manner!).

JohnT




  #428  
Old October 13th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Miguel Cruz
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Default Nice Ugly Americans

Desmond Coughlan wrote:
There's a difference between expressing an opinion, and insulting, IMHO.
Most people who get their collars felt for the above, are of the kind who
get stopped for speeding, and call the cop 'un pauvre con' [1], or who go
to the local social security office, get told that they're not getting any
money that day, and start screaming that the lady behind the counter is
'une sale pute' [2].

The view in French law is that people who serve the state, don't deserve to
be on the receiving end of such abuse.


What's the difference between the person at the social security office, and
the person at the bank or the phone company office?

If they've decided they're going to legislate politeness, it ought to at
least be equal-opportunity.

Personally, I'd say it should be the opposite: Anyone who is so immature as
to respond in any way but laughter to being called 'un pauvre con' or
anything else should be hauled off to re-education camp. All the power in
words like that comes from the recipient.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
  #429  
Old October 14th, 2003, 12:09 AM
David Horne
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Default Nice Ugly Americans

Miguel Cruz wrote:

Personally, I'd say it should be the opposite: Anyone who is so immature as
to respond in any way but laughter to being called 'un pauvre con' or
anything else should be hauled off to re-education camp.


Not always. It depends on the context- soome insults are off-the-cuff,
others are much more personal and threatening.

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
  #430  
Old October 14th, 2003, 02:19 AM
Miguel Cruz
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David Horne wrote:
Miguel Cruz wrote:
Personally, I'd say it should be the opposite: Anyone who is so immature
as to respond in any way but laughter to being called 'un pauvre con' or
anything else should be hauled off to re-education camp.


Not always. It depends on the context- soome insults are off-the-cuff,
others are much more personal and threatening.


Threats are another matter entirely.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
 




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