What would you have done about this idiot?

"Craig Welch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:16:23 -0700, "PTRAVEL"
wrote:

Not sure I follow that. You'd stick your head in someone else's space?
(that doesn't sound right). Sorry, I don't buy it. Flying out of SNA
heading to the east coast, most flight paths that head towards a
mid-country
hub take you very close to Meteor Crater in Arizona. I've been on a lot
of
flights in which the pilot would announce that the crater can be seen off
the right side of the aircraft. I have, on occassion, invited interested
passengers on the left to take a look out of my window to see this sight,
but it's always been by-invitation-only.

Very big of you, allowing someone else to *look* out your window. If
only everyone displayed such courtesy.

"Look out my window," as in, "Lean across me so they can be right next to
the window." As I'm sure you knew very well.



Does that extend to passengers in your car also?

--
Craig

"Craig Welch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 3 Oct 2003 07:42:09 -0700, "PTRAVEL"
wrote:

You're the only one, here, who thinks it's okay for other people to
intrude
into your seat space and pull down your shade.

No he's not. I consider it quite normal. I can't count the number of
times I've seen a window seat passenger fall asleep, with the aisle
passenger then leaning over and closing the shade as a courtesy.

The usual reaction when the window seat passenger wakes up is to say
'oh, thanks'.

First, this wasn't an aisle seat passenger doing it "as a courtesy," but a
passenger seated behind me doing it because HE wanted the shade down.
However, I've _never_ seen an _unrelated_ aisle-seat passenger do this.



--
Craig

"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"me" wrote in message
om...
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message
m...
[snip]
I would have
fully agreed with you that had you been using the window at the time
he should have asked and you would have been well within your "rights"
to have refused. But look, you were asleep - so instead of waking
you, he closed the shade. You weren't using the window and he was
bothered by the shade being open. You didn't lose anything and he
gained. Why the stick up your butt?

When I get up to use the john, I don't use my seat or pillow, either.
Do
you think it's okay to sit in someone else's seat and take a quick
snooze
with your head on their pillow?


First, answer the question. Inquiring minds want to know.

The question was obviously rhetorical.

Well, I should have snipped the "stick up the butt" part. But
what was your objection considering you were asleep?


But second,
yes, I've been known to utilize an empty seat next to me whilst the
passenger was gone to do all manner of things. (They aren't gone
long so naps are outta the question but...)

Which is non-responsive to my question. I have no idea what "utilize" means
in the context in which you've used it. Did you put your magazine on it?
Your carryon?

That would be the most common. I might reorganize my things between
the carry on under the seat, the seat pocket, maybe what I have in
the over head bin, that kinda thing. I use their tray table too.

Did you sit in someone else's seat during a rough patch of
turbulence?

Well, I've sat there for a whole host of reasons including
having a conversation with someone, and yes, to look out the window
while they were gone.

Those circumstances are either non-intrusive or justified under
the circumstances. Did you "utilize" someone else's seat by making yourself
comfy with their pillow and blanket? If so, you imposed.

And what most of us are suggesting is that while you are asleep,
closing the shade is no more obtrusvie than using your seat while you're
at the head.

He pulled down my shade, which he had no right to do. I also woke up,
most
likely because of his intrusion.
[snip]

This part I tend to agree with. I've been in a similar situation and
have tended to restrain myself for that very reason. Pretty hard to
reach over and close it without waking someone.

Earlier in this thread I explained why I like to keep the shade open. I've
been on flights were my assigned "window" seat was actually next to
windowless part of the fuselage (some 767s are like this). The only way I'd
be able to see out would be peering between the seat and the fuselage at the
window next to the pax in front of me. If that pax wanted his window down,
for whatever reason, I would never dream of snaking my hand between the
fuselage and the seat and raising it.

I have been know however to close them when they were asleep and
the FA's were asking for them to be closed.

But I lived in a large family, 9 folks in a 5 bedroom house. Old
style, no "family" room. All space in the house was constantly in
shared use. Kinda lose the whole "my space/your space" concept
in that situation. Ya tend to learn the age old lesson of sharing
everything. To be honest, if I became aware that light was glaring
on the passenger, I'd be the one to close it, probably without being
asked.

I would as well. The light wasn't glaring on the passenger. That's the
whole point -- there was no sun in his eyes, there was no movie playing, in
short there was no reason to have my shade down other than that passengers
personal preference to have a dark cabin. My personal preference is to have
a light cabin. The compromise is the one designed by the aircraft
manufacturer -- individually-controlled shades: he could keep his down, and
I could keep mine up.

The issue that pretty much confuses everyone however was that you were
asleep.


If I wanted to peer out, I'd stick my own head in there
to handle the issue.

Not sure I follow that. You'd stick your head in someone else's space?

No, if I had "my" window shade open because I wanted to look out the
window, but the sun was shining on another passenger, I'd stick my
head in "my" window so as to block the sun.


[snip]
Folks, we're packed in like sardines for several
hours.

All the more reason to be respectful of other passenger's personal
space.And, FWIW, this happened in F, which is considerably less
sardine-like.

And to be a little less demanding when one is asleep.


One for all and all for one ya know?

Which is why a request to me or, failing that, a request to the FA would
have been appropriate. Invading my space was not.

The perception is you were being a bit pedantic. The magnitude of
the transgression appears to be a bit out of kilter with the
magintude of your response. I'm afraid even if I was in total
agreement with you on the technicalities of the transgression, I
wouldn't remember it long enough to comment about it after the flight.

"me" wrote in message
om...
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message
...
"me" wrote in message
om...
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan Smith" wrote in message
m...
[snip]
I would have
fully agreed with you that had you been using the window at the
time
he should have asked and you would have been well within your
"rights"
to have refused. But look, you were asleep - so instead of waking
you, he closed the shade. You weren't using the window and he was
bothered by the shade being open. You didn't lose anything and he
gained. Why the stick up your butt?

When I get up to use the john, I don't use my seat or pillow,
either.
Do
you think it's okay to sit in someone else's seat and take a quick
snooze
with your head on their pillow?


First, answer the question. Inquiring minds want to know.

The question was obviously rhetorical.

Well, I should have snipped the "stick up the butt" part. But
what was your objection considering you were asleep?

1. It was probably the pax behind me pulling down my shade that woke me up.
2. Waking up and finding the shade down was disorienting -- I specifically
fly only in window seats precisely because I don't like the sensation of
being disoriented, which occurs when I can't see out the window.
3. It was an intrusion into my personal space. If I'm asleep and not using
my tray table, do you think it's okay for him to lower it and set up his
computer on it?




But second,
yes, I've been known to utilize an empty seat next to me whilst the
passenger was gone to do all manner of things. (They aren't gone
long so naps are outta the question but...)

Which is non-responsive to my question. I have no idea what "utilize"
means
in the context in which you've used it. Did you put your magazine on
it?
Your carryon?

That would be the most common. I might reorganize my things between
the carry on under the seat, the seat pocket, maybe what I have in
the over head bin, that kinda thing. I use their tray table too.

That's not much of an intrusion, as long as you don't make them wait while
you re-organize when they return.


Did you sit in someone else's seat during a rough patch of
turbulence?

Well, I've sat there for a whole host of reasons including
having a conversation with someone, and yes, to look out the window
while they were gone.

This, perhaps, gets a little closer to the line, though it doesn't cross it
as long as you didn't inconvenience the person whose seat it was when they
returned.


Those circumstances are either non-intrusive or justified under
the circumstances. Did you "utilize" someone else's seat by making
yourself
comfy with their pillow and blanket? If so, you imposed.

And what most of us are suggesting is that while you are asleep,
closing the shade is no more obtrusvie than using your seat while you're
at the head.

And I disagree. As I said, it probably woke me up, but either way it was an
imposition on my space while I was in it.


He pulled down my shade, which he had no right to do. I also woke
up,
most
likely because of his intrusion.
[snip]

This part I tend to agree with. I've been in a similar situation
and
have tended to restrain myself for that very reason. Pretty hard to
reach over and close it without waking someone.

Earlier in this thread I explained why I like to keep the shade open.
I've
been on flights were my assigned "window" seat was actually next to
windowless part of the fuselage (some 767s are like this). The only way
I'd
be able to see out would be peering between the seat and the fuselage at
the
window next to the pax in front of me. If that pax wanted his window
down,
for whatever reason, I would never dream of snaking my hand between the
fuselage and the seat and raising it.

I have been know however to close them when they were asleep and
the FA's were asking for them to be closed.

If the FA is asking for them to be closed, then it is for a reason, i.e.
there's a movie on, it will soon be dawn, etc. In other words, it prevents
a single passenger from imposing on all the others and, under those
circumstances, I've lowered my shade when asked. Here it was just one
passenger who decided to impose his personal preference on me -- no
necessity, just preference.


But I lived in a large family, 9 folks in a 5 bedroom house. Old
style, no "family" room. All space in the house was constantly in
shared use. Kinda lose the whole "my space/your space" concept
in that situation. Ya tend to learn the age old lesson of sharing
everything. To be honest, if I became aware that light was glaring
on the passenger, I'd be the one to close it, probably without being
asked.

I would as well. The light wasn't glaring on the passenger. That's the
whole point -- there was no sun in his eyes, there was no movie playing,
in
short there was no reason to have my shade down other than that
passengers
personal preference to have a dark cabin. My personal preference is to
have
a light cabin. The compromise is the one designed by the aircraft
manufacturer -- individually-controlled shades: he could keep his down,
and
I could keep mine up.

The issue that pretty much confuses everyone however was that you were
asleep.

Why? I prefer the shade up when I'm awake and I prefer the shade up when
I'm asleep. Since it's my shade, I shouldn't have to justify my preference.
However, I've already explained why I like it up, regardless of my relative
state of consciousness.



If I wanted to peer out, I'd stick my own head in there
to handle the issue.

Not sure I follow that. You'd stick your head in someone else's space?

No, if I had "my" window shade open because I wanted to look out the
window, but the sun was shining on another passenger, I'd stick my
head in "my" window so as to block the sun.

And I'd lower my shade so as not to impose on the other passenger. That
wasn't the situation here.



[snip]
Folks, we're packed in like sardines for several
hours.

All the more reason to be respectful of other passenger's personal
space.And, FWIW, this happened in F, which is considerably less
sardine-like.

And to be a little less demanding when one is asleep.

Sorry -- I demand that strangers keep out of my personal space, regardless
of whether I'm awake or asleep. For me, the idle state to be in when I'm
flying is feeling the effects of a couple of glasses of wine, with my
noise-cancelling headset on, lost in my music, and my eyes closed. On rare
occassions, if I'm particularly tired, I may fall asleep for a few moments.
However, for the most part, I just drift along in a pleasant alpha state,
glancing out of the window from time to time (and, particularly when we hit
a patch of turbulence), until the double-ding means I have to put my
electronics away. This is how I like to fly, and the airline permits me to
do it by giving me a seat next to a window and allowing me to control the
window shade. No one has any basis for telling em I can't fly this way
unless I'm specifically interfering with them and how they lik to fly, e.g.
without the sun glaring in their eyes, or watching the movie. If the pax
behind me insists on a dark cabin, he can either be satisfied with the
darkness that results from lowering his own shades, bring along eye shades,
or charter his own jet.



One for all and all for one ya know?

Which is why a request to me or, failing that, a request to the FA would
have been appropriate. Invading my space was not.

The perception is you were being a bit pedantic.

Is pedantic really the word you want to use here? If so, I don't think I
understand your point. And, speaking of points, I started this thread about
someone using a Blackberry two-way PDA during takeoff, which is what the
subject line refers to, not the boor behind me who assumed his preferences
over-rode my own.

The magnitude of
the transgression appears to be a bit out of kilter with the
magintude of your response.

I made no response, other than to raise my shade.

I'm afraid even if I was in total
agreement with you on the technicalities of the transgression, I
wouldn't remember it long enough to comment about it after the flight.

I'm not even sure how this digression got started. It's certainly not
anything that I would have started a thread about.

"PTRAVEL" wrote in message ...
"me" wrote in message
[snip]
The perception is you were being a bit pedantic.

Is pedantic really the word you want to use here? If so, I don't think I
understand your point.

A guy lowered your shade while you were sleeping. Was it
completely according to Hoyle? Maybe, maybe not, but the
magnitude of the offensive is so small as to be inconsequential.
Furthermore, the magnitude of the offense would seem less than
the magnitude of the discomfort to the passenger that was
awake. If it bothered him that much, it would seem a little
tolerance on your part was in order.

"me" wrote in message
om...
"PTRAVEL" wrote in message
...
"me" wrote in message
[snip]
The perception is you were being a bit pedantic.

Is pedantic really the word you want to use here? If so, I don't think
I
understand your point.

A guy lowered your shade while you were sleeping. Was it
completely according to Hoyle? Maybe, maybe not, but the
magnitude of the offensive is so small as to be inconsequential.
Furthermore, the magnitude of the offense would seem less than
the magnitude of the discomfort to the passenger that was
awake. If it bothered him that much, it would seem a little
tolerance on your part was in order.

Sorry, but I think you're completely wrong. I've already explained, at some
length, why.