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The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to paytaxes than even many of the more socialized economies of Europe. Thisconclusion is inconsistent with the liberal lie that top earners in the U.S.are not paying their "fair share&q



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 23rd, 2012, 01:20 AM posted to soc.retirement,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.media,sci.econ,rec.travel.europe
BeamMeUpScotty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default The United States is actually more dependent on rich people topay taxes.

On 10/22/2012 8:00 PM, Nickname unavailable wrote:
its we the people, not i got mine so **** off.


We'll all be over for dinner tomorrow, make sure you stop off and get
enough chicken for everyone.
  #32  
Old October 23rd, 2012, 06:18 AM posted to soc.retirement,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.media,sci.econ,rec.travel.europe
Planet Visitor II[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to pay taxes.

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Nickname unavailable wrote:

On Oct 22, 2:53*pm, Planet Visitor II wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Nickname unavailable wrote:
On Oct 19, 11:37 pm, Planet Visitor II wrote:


yea, there is no proof at all, except their own writings and how the
constitution was crafted. blubber on, i beat your ass.


Logical fallacy -- Argumentum ad verecundiam. See --


http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...html#authority


deathly silence

and -- Argumentum ad hominem. See --


http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...c.html#hominem


deathly silence

Your apology for having no proof of your argument is accepted.


Planet Visitor II


face it light weight, you got nothing, i got this,


I don't see the word "rich," or "socialism," nor does "promoting the
general welfare" argue the rich have to do it. *Since doing so certainly
doesn't _promote the general welfare_ of those giving voluntarily.
While, keep in mind, those words were framed while slavery was still
a powerful force in the U.S. *I don't believe the Founding Fathers
intended those words to apply to Black slaves in the U.S.


deathly silence

No matter how you slice and dice it, the rich giving handouts to those
not as rich only ****es off both the giver and the taker. *Blacks hark
back to the days they were slaves, and needed to kiss the White Man's
ass to get a proper meal. *Which is why racists are so supportive of
welfare." * Believing it best to keep those Blacks in the ghetto with
handouts, rather than giving them a hand up to achieve equality
in social, economic and educational opportunities.


deathly silence

It's rather obvious that the reaction of those receiving such handouts
only increases their rage; and their belief that anti-Social behavior is
justified because the world is filled with racists giving handouts, to
keep them subdued as if having been given a lobotomy. *The socially
disadvantaged are not as stupid as you would make them out to be,
in you arguing to give them money to keep them quiet.


deathly silence

Those who support handouts rather than giving a hand up to the
socially disadvantaged are either oblivious to the psychological reactions
of those being placed into second-class citizenship; or they are
racists knowing this and wanting to perpetuate keeping them
as second-class citizens and nothing else.


deathly silence

Would you rather be given a handout, viewed as a second-class
citizen, or given a hand up to gain equality in social, economic,
and educational opportunities? *I've never argued we should
reduce taxes; but I have argued against how we allocate those
taxes, in giving handouts rather than establishing a social
framework that goes toward creating equality with that tax
revenue. *That should be the REAL focus of the words "provide
for the general welfare."


deathly silence

Planet Visitor II


The Constitution of the United States
Preamble Note
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings
of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish
this Constitution for the United States of America.


See --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause
QUOTE -- "Taxing and Spending Clause
The United States Constitution contains two references to "the General Welfare",
one occurring in the Preamble and the other in the Taxing and Spending Clause.
The U.S. Supreme Court has held the mention of the clause in the Preamble
to the U.S. Constitution "has never been regarded as the source of any substantive
power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments."
Moreover, the Supreme Court held the understanding of the General Welfare
Clause contained in the Taxing and Spending Clause adheres to the construction
given it by Associate Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the
Constitution of the United States. Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare
Clause is not a grant of general legislative power, but a qualification on the taxing
power which includes within it a federal power to spend federal revenues on matters
of general interest to the federal government. The Court described Justice Story's
view as the "Hamiltonian position", as Alexander Hamilton had elaborated his view
of the taxing and spending powers in his 1791 Report on Manufactures. Story,
however, attributes the position's initial appearance to Thomas Jefferson, in his
Opinion on the Bank of the United States. As such, these clauses in the U.S.
Constitution are an atypical use of a general welfare clause, and are not considered
grants of a general legislative power to the federal government."

Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas,
and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use
shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia
according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into
Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this
Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
Department or Officer thereof.


THE SUPREMACY CLAUSE
Article. VI.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be
made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be
made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby,
any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary
notwithstanding.


The preemption doctrine derives from the Supremacy Clause of the
Constitution which states that the "Constitution and the laws of the
United States...shall be the supreme law of the land...anything in the
constitutions or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
This means of course, that any federal law--even a regulation of a
federal agency--trumps any conflicting state law.


Article V - Amendment Note1 - Note2 - Note3
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it
necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the
Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States,
shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either
Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this
Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of
the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the
one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;
Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One
thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first
and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that
no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage
in the Senate.


so any law, treaty or regulation that is deemed constitutional, shall
be the law of the land. its really quite simple. the constitution was
crafted by liberals, who gave the constitution broad powers to
legislate, tax, regulate, negate state law, mandate, tariff, to
promote and provide for the general welfare, to ensure domestic
tranquility, and To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper
for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers
vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or
in any Department or Officer thereof.))


and of course the extensive writings of the founders original intent
for a interventionist government, socialism.



oh i forgot, what do you think a interventionist government is, its
socialism. and as i have proven to you, the founders were against
concentrated and inherited wealth, its why the federal government has
the right to tax enshrined into the constitution, along with other
liberal interventionist policies. i have proven this to you many times
before. you are such a light weight. your logic and critical thinking
skills, are at best, appalling.


So you're a socialist... so what??? Capitalism doesn't support interventionist
government. See --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism


Planet Visitor II
  #33  
Old October 23rd, 2012, 06:23 AM posted to soc.retirement,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.media,sci.econ,rec.travel.europe
Planet Visitor II[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default The United States is actually more dependent on rich people to pay taxes.

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:00:44 -0700 (PDT), Nickname unavailable wrote:

On Oct 22, 2:53*pm, Planet Visitor II wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Nickname unavailable wrote:
On Oct 19, 11:37 pm, Planet Visitor II wrote:


yea, there is no proof at all, except their own writings and how the
constitution was crafted. blubber on, i beat your ass.


Logical fallacy -- Argumentum ad verecundiam. See --


http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...html#authority

and -- Argumentum ad hominem. See --


http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...c.html#hominem



Your apology for having no proof of your argument is accepted.


Planet Visitor II


face it light weight, you got nothing, i got this,


I don't see the word "rich," or "socialism," nor does "promoting the
general welfare" argue the rich have to do it. *Since doing so certainly
doesn't _promote the general welfare_ of those giving voluntarily.
While, keep in mind, those words were framed while slavery was still
a powerful force in the U.S. *I don't believe the Founding Fathers
intended those words to apply to Black slaves in the U.S.


deathly silence

No matter how you slice and dice it, the rich giving handouts to those
not as rich only ****es off both the giver and the taker. *Blacks hark
back to the days they were slaves, and needed to kiss the White Man's
ass to get a proper meal. *Which is why racists are so supportive of
welfare." * Believing it best to keep those Blacks in the ghetto with
handouts, rather than giving them a hand up to achieve equality
in social, economic and educational opportunities.


deathly silence

It's rather obvious that the reaction of those receiving such handouts
only increases their rage; and their belief that anti-Social behavior is
justified because the world is filled with racists giving handouts, to
keep them subdued as if having been given a lobotomy. *The socially
disadvantaged are not as stupid as you would make them out to be,
in you arguing to give them money to keep them quiet.


deathly silence

Those who support handouts rather than giving a hand up to the
socially disadvantaged are either oblivious to the psychological reactions
of those being placed into second-class citizenship; or they are
racists knowing this and wanting to perpetuate keeping them
as second-class citizens and nothing else.


deathly silence

Would you rather be given a handout, viewed as a second-class
citizen, or given a hand up to gain equality in social, economic,
and educational opportunities? *I've never argued we should
reduce taxes; but I have argued against how we allocate those
taxes, in giving handouts rather than establishing a social
framework that goes toward creating equality with that tax
revenue. *That should be the REAL focus of the words "provide
for the general welfare."


deathly silence

Planet Visitor II

The Constitution of the United States
Preamble Note
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings
of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish
this Constitution for the United States of America.


Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common
Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several
States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on
the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and
fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and
current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas,
and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules
concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use
shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval
Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the
Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and
for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of
the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the
Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia
according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such
District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of
particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of
the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority
over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the
State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts,
Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into
Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this
Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any
Department or Officer thereof.


THE SUPREMACY CLAUSE
Article. VI.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be
made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be
made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme
Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby,
any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary
notwithstanding.


The preemption doctrine derives from the Supremacy Clause of the
Constitution which states that the "Constitution and the laws of the
United States...shall be the supreme law of the land...anything in the
constitutions or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
This means of course, that any federal law--even a regulation of a
federal agency--trumps any conflicting state law.


Article V - Amendment Note1 - Note2 - Note3
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it
necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the
Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States,
shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either
Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this
Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of
the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the
one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress;
Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One
thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first
and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that
no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage
in the Senate.


so any law, treaty or regulation that is deemed constitutional, shall
be the law of the land. its really quite simple. the constitution was
crafted by liberals, who gave the constitution broad powers to
legislate, tax, regulate, negate state law, mandate, tariff, to
promote and provide for the general welfare, to ensure domestic
tranquility, and To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper
for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers
vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or
in any Department or Officer thereof.))


and of course the extensive writings of the founders original intent
for a interventionist government, socialism.


its we the people, not i got mine so **** off. you are not only
selfish and greedy, but you are a wealth worshiping ignorant fool, and
un-american to boot.

someone as stupid as you, this will go WHOOOOOOOOOOOSH way over your
pointy little wealth worshiping head.


Heh... I know I win when the other begins personal attacks, while showing
his total ignorance of the English language.

Suck it up, my son. Socialism is nothing other than a form of slavery.

"All socialism involves slavery." -- Herbert Spencer


Planet Visitor II

Thoughts from the Great Depression
As mass production has to be accompanied by mass consumption, mass
consumption, in turn, implies a distribution of wealth -- not of
existing wealth, but of wealth as it is currently produced -- to
provide men with buying power equal to the amount of goods and
services offered by the nation's economic machinery. Instead of
achieving that kind of distribution, a giant suction pump had by
1929-30 drawn into a few hands an increasing portion of currently
produced wealth. This served them as capital accumulations. But by
taking purchasing power out of the hands of mass consumers, the savers
denied to themselves the kind of effective demand for their products
that would justify a reinvestment of their capital accumulations in
new plants. In consequence, as in a poker game where the chips were
concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, the other fellows could stay in
the game only by borrowing. When their credit ran out, the game
stopped.

(Eccles, Marriner S. 1951. Beckoning Frontiers: Public and Personal
Recollections (New York: Alfred A. Knopf): p. 76


And was it handouts they needed... or jobs??? When the wealth of a
nation dries up, there is not enough to go around for everyone. The
only cure for that is productivity... not handouts. I suppose next you'll
be blaming the dust bowl on capitalism.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel
of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." -- Winston Churchill

"Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to
no one governing. " -- Vladimir Lenin

How's that going for you???


Planet Visitor II
  #34  
Old October 24th, 2012, 06:11 AM posted to soc.retirement,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.media,sci.econ,rec.travel.europe
Nickname unavailable[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default The United States is actually more dependent on rich people topay taxes.

On Oct 23, 12:18Â*am, Planet Visitor II wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Nickname unavailable wrote:
On Oct 22, 2:53 pm, Planet Visitor II wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Nickname unavailable wrote:
On Oct 19, 11:37 pm, Planet Visitor II wrote:


yea, there is no proof at all, except their own writings and how the
constitution was crafted. blubber on, i beat your ass.


Logical fallacy -- Argumentum ad verecundiam. See --


http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...html#authority


deathly silence

and -- Argumentum ad hominem. See --


http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...c.html#hominem


deathly silence

Your apology for having no proof of your argument is accepted.


Planet Visitor II


face it light weight, you got nothing, i got this,


I don't see the word "rich," or "socialism," nor does "promoting the
general welfare" argue the rich have to do it. Since doing so certainly
doesn't _promote the general welfare_ of those giving voluntarily.
While, keep in mind, those words were framed while slavery was still
a powerful force in the U.S. I don't believe the Founding Fathers
intended those words to apply to Black slaves in the U.S.


deathly silence



no silence, JUST ROTFLOL!! only a complete idiot would say i see
nothing hear about socialism. what do you think the power to tax and
intervene in markets is moron!!!



No matter how you slice and dice it, the rich giving handouts to those
not as rich only ****es off both the giver and the taker. Blacks hark
back to the days they were slaves, and needed to kiss the White Man's
ass to get a proper meal. Which is why racists are so supportive of
welfare." Believing it best to keep those Blacks in the ghetto with
handouts, rather than giving them a hand up to achieve equality
in social, economic and educational opportunities.


deathly silence




NO SILENCE, JUST ROTFLOL!!! still does not refute the facts that the
majority of the founders were liberals, who despised concentrated
wealth and power, and enshrined the constitution with the tools to
intervene)))



It's rather obvious that the reaction of those receiving such handouts
only increases their rage; and their belief that anti-Social behavior is
justified because the world is filled with racists giving handouts, to
keep them subdued as if having been given a lobotomy. The socially
disadvantaged are not as stupid as you would make them out to be,
in you arguing to give them money to keep them quiet.


deathly silence



NO SILENCE, JUST ROTFLOL!!! still does not refute the facts that the
majority of the founders were liberals, who despised concentrated
wealth and power, and enshrined the constitution with the tools to
intervene)))
what a light weight, what a brown nose wealth worshiper. your opinion
is not fact.




Those who support handouts rather than giving a hand up to the
socially disadvantaged are either oblivious to the psychological reactions
of those being placed into second-class citizenship; or they are
racists knowing this and wanting to perpetuate keeping them
as second-class citizens and nothing else.


deathly silence



NO SILENCE, JUST ROTFLOL!!! still does not refute the facts that the
majority of the founders were liberals, who despised concentrated
wealth and power, and enshrined the constitution with the tools to
intervene)))
what a light weight, what a brown nose wealth worshiper. your opinion
is not fact.


Would you rather be given a handout, viewed as a second-class
citizen, or given a hand up to gain equality in social, economic,
and educational opportunities? I've never argued we should
reduce taxes; but I have argued against how we allocate those
taxes, in giving handouts rather than establishing a social
framework that goes toward creating equality with that tax
revenue. That should be the REAL focus of the words "provide
for the general welfare."


deathly silence



NO SILENCE, JUST ROTFLOL!!! still does not refute the facts that the
majority of the founders were liberals, who despised concentrated
wealth and power, and enshrined the constitution with the tools to
intervene)))
what a light weight, what a brown nose wealth worshiper. your opinion
is not fact.


Planet Visitor II
The Constitution of the United States
Preamble Note
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings
of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish
this Constitution for the United States of America.


See --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Welfare_clause
QUOTE -- "Taxing and Spending Clause
The United States Constitution contains two references to "the General Welfare",
one occurring in the Preamble and the other in the Taxing and Spending Clause.
The U.S. Supreme Court has held the mention of the clause in the Preamble
to the U.S. Constitution "has never been regarded as the source of any substantive
power conferred on the Government of the United States or on any of its Departments."
Moreover, the Supreme Court held the understanding of the General Welfare
Clause contained in the Taxing and Spending Clause adheres to the construction
given it by Associate Justice Joseph Story in his 1833 Commentaries on the
Constitution of the United States. Â*Justice Story concluded that the General Welfare
Clause is not a grant of general legislative power, but a qualification on the taxing
power which includes within it a federal power to spend federal revenues on matters
of general interest to the federal government. The Court described Justice Story's
view as the "Hamiltonian position", as Alexander Hamilton had elaborated his view
of the taxing and spending powers in his 1791 Report on Manufactures. Story,
however, attributes the position's initial appearance to Thomas Jefferson, in his
Opinion on the Bank of the United States. Â*As such, these clauses in the U.S.
Constitution are an atypical use of a general welfare clause, and are not considered
grants of a general legislative power to the federal government."




try as you might, you got nothing. and the original intent is not
only enshrined in the preamble, its enshrined in the constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preambl...s_Constitution

The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory
statement of the fundamental purposes and guiding principles that the
Constitution is meant to serve. In general terms it states, and courts
have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers'
intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped it
would achieve (especially as compared with the Articles of
Confederation).

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the
Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and
establish this Constitution for the United States of America.




oh i forgot, what do you think a interventionist government is, its
socialism. and as i have proven to you, the founders were against
concentrated and inherited wealth, its why the federal government has
the right to tax enshrined into the constitution, along with other
liberal interventionist policies. i have proven this to you many times
before. you are such a light weight. your logic and critical Â*thinking
skills, are at best, appalling.


So you're a socialist... so what??? Â*Capitalism doesn't support interventionist
government. Â*See --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism



capitalism is not the american constitution dummy. the constitution
plainly is a interventionist document. you need to move somewhere
else. you are un-american. i do not post this stuff for you, you are
far to stupid, greedy, and selfish to even understand what america was
founded on. i respond to idiots like you, because many other people
are reading these posts, and they are getting a real good education.

this will be a total waste of time, i have posted stuff like this to
you, and others many time over, to no avail. the declaration of
independence, the preamble, and the constitution is a social contract
between the people, and our government. but here goes.



http://www.libertynet.org/edcivic/socdisc.html

"To Promote the General Welfare"
A Discussion Guide for Developing Community Social Contracts 
Ed
Schwartz, President 
Institute for the Study of Civic Values
Philadelphia, Pa.

Introduction

Americans today learn a great deal about how to function as
individuals, but not about how to work together. At the workplace,
managers tell us to do our job and not to worry about the next guy.
Within communities, even when we have the time to participate, it's
not easy to determine what we might do with our neighbors, or how we
might do it. Grassroots political organizations are becoming rare,
leaving citizen participation in government to pollsters who tell
politicians what we think without our ever talking to them directly.
This is hardly what early Americans had in mind when they insisted
that the "freedom of assembly" be included in the Bill of Rights.
"A community," St. Augustine observed, "is a group of people united by
the common objects of their love." Building community, then, involves
identifying these "common objects," or shared goals, and working
together to achieve them. We build community to strengthen the things
that we value--or, phrased differently, to promote the values that we
share.
"Yes, but whose values?" some people ask today, as if they arrived
from another planet, without reference to anyone but themselves. The
founding citizens of the United States gave us clear answers to that
question. In the Declaration of Independence, they insisted that we
work together to preserve human equality --the rights of "life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," for each individual. They
insisted that our Constitution include a Bill of Rights, detailing the
freedoms that every citizen would enjoy. Today, most of us can recite
the opening lines of the Declaration and express pride in the Bill of
Rights, even if we can't recall every amendment. These are most
certainly "common objects" of the "love" that all Americans share.
Our founding citizens also established the grounds on which they--and
we--should work together in our communities and as a people. They
defined these principles in the Preamble to the Constitution:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for
the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the
blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and
establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
If the major purpose of the Constitution was to define the structure
and powers of the government that would enable "we the people" to
achieve these goals, the Preamble was a statement of the shared values
and goals that the government and the American people were expected to
uphold.
Sadly, much of what is said about American values today flies in the
face of these fundamental principles.
Many of us still talk about different racial, ethnic, and economic
groups as if they were strangers in our midst, not part of "we the
people," even though the entire force of American Constitutional
history over two centuries has been to expand the document's
conception of who is to be included in "the people." In 1789, it was
white men. Under the Constitution today, it is everyone.
We're all for security--personal security and national secuity. We
rally together when we believe our security to be threatened. Yet the
Preamble of the Constitution talks about security not merely for
ourselves and the nation, but "the blessings of liberty for ourselves
and our posterity"--that is, all future generations, as well as the
present one. Despite this commitment, how many of us today feel that
we have no obligation to anyone's children but our own?
Over the past two decades, we have heard that it's OK to "look out for
No.1" without regard to other people. The Preamble calls for
government and the people to work together to "promote the general
welfare."
Protecting "us" against "them" has become an obsession for many groups
in this society threatening a total breakdown of the culture. The
Constitution was designed in the hope of creating "a more perfect
union" among diverse localities and groups.
Almost every day we read about people and institutions that think that
they're entitled to as much power as they can get, to do whatever they
want. Under the Constitution, each succeeding generation was supposed
"to establish justice."
The framers of the Constitution were painfully aware that a free
society would face either anarchy or tyranny unless guided by a
commitment to the public good. They understood that as conditions
changed, the application of these principles would change. The
principles themselves were to be timeless.
The citizen planning program that follows uses concepts from the
Preamble to the Constitution to help neighborhood activists,
government, and business leaders design real social contracts
outlining mutual obligations to promote the general welfare of their
communities. We are especially concerned to involve all citizens in
the neighborhood in the discussion--tenants as well as landlords,
public housing residents along with homeowners. They are all part of
"we the people."
As a starting point for the discussion, we offer a generally worded
new social contract--one that expresses our commitment "to promote the
general welfare" and to "establish justice" in terms of preserving
viable neighborhoods and promoting economic opportunity for everyone.
From there, we challenge participants to recognize that "we the
people" in America means all members of a community, however and
wherever they live--poor people as well as the middle- class and the
rich; citizens of every color, nationality, and faith.
Then we ask participants to identity the conditions in their
communities that threaten their ability to "secure the blessings of
liberty to ourselves and our posterity."
Based on their assessment of these conditions, we then help the
participants develop social contracts specific to their own
neighborhoods, defining how they can work with government and the
private sector to promote the "general welfare" in relation to safety,
the physical environment, children, and economic opportunity.
Once participants have drafted a social contract, we ask them to
explore how it might build unity, a "more perfect union" in the
neighborhood.
Finally, the participants define what they must do to "establish
justice" as the fundamental principle guiding the social contract that
they have drafted.
Americans are now searching for a shared set of beliefs to unite us as
citizens without stifling freedom or destroying diversity.
That is what America's founders intended to give us in the Preamble to
the Constitution.
As this program makes clear, the principles are as relevant now as
they were over 200 years ago, and a renewed commitment to the social
contract can help us keep them alive.

Edward Schwartz, President 
Institute for the Study of Civic Values
July, 1992

"We the People"
"Hearken not to the unnatural voice which tells you that the people of
America, knit together as they are by so many cords of affection, can
no longer live together as members of the same family; can no longer
continue the mutual guardians of their mutual happiness; can no longer
be fellow-citizens of one great, respectable, and flourishing
empire."
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, 1787
"Your high independence only reveals the immeasurable distance between
us. The blessings in which you this day rejoice are not enjoyed in
common. The rich inheritance of justice, liberty, prosperity, and
independence bequeathed by your fathers is shared by you, not by me.
The sunlight that brought life and healing to you has brought stripes
and death to me." 
--Frederick Douglass, "What to the Slave is July
4th," 1852
"It was we, the people, not we, the white male citizens, nor we, the
male citizens; but we, the whole people,who formed this Union. We
formed it not to give the blessings of liberty but to secure them; not
the half of ourselves and the half of our posterity, but to the whole
people--women as well as men." 
--Susan B. Anthony, "On Women's
Suffrage," 1873

Questions for Discussion

1.
2. Who are "the people" of the neighborhood? What are their
backgrounds, their ethnic and religious origins, their economic
conditions? If divisions exist, how do people understand them?
3.
4. Are all residents considered to be "we the people"--regardless of
whether they're homeowners, tenants, or residents in public housing?
5.
6. Do the people of the neighborhood see themselves as part of a
community, or merely as private residents of an area with little
binding them together?
7.
8. Are the people of the neighborhood "knit together" by "cords of
affection," as Madison characterized Americans in 1787? Or are there
serious racial, ethnic, and economic strains among them?
9.
10. Can a shared commitment to American values, as articulated in the
Preamble to the Constitution, become the foundation of a sense of
community in the neighborhood?


"Secure the Blessings of Liberty"

"Energy in government is essential to that security against external
and internal danger and to that prompt and salutary execution of the
laws which enter into the very definition of good government."
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, 1787
"Education generates habits of application, of order, and the love of
virtue; and controls, by the force of habit, any innate obliquities in
our moral organization...Education, in like manner, engrafts a new man
on the native stock, and improves what in his nature was vicious and
perverse into qualities of virtue and social worth." 
--Thomas
Jefferson, Report of the University of Virginia, 1818
"The charity visitor may say that every American man can find work and
is bound to support his family. He soon discovers that the workingman,
in the city at least, is utterly dependent for the tenure of his
position upon the good will of his foreman, upon the business
prosperity of the firm or the good health of the head of it; and that,
once work is lost, it may take months to secure another place." 
--
Jane Addams, The Subtle Problems of Charity, 1899

Questions for Discussion

1.
2. Do people in the neighborhood feel that their liberty is secure?
If not, what are the main reasons why people feel insecure?
3.
4. The passages from James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Jane Addams
suggest three main ingredients for security--strong law enforcement, a
good educational system, and a healthy economy. Where does the
neighborhood stand in relation to these conditions?
5.
6. Do people feel safe from crime? If not, what are the major kinds
of crime that threaten people? Where is crime most common--on
residential blocks, on the retail corridor?
7.
8. What are the major problems threatening the housing stock and the
overall appearance and physical stability of the neighborhood?
9.
10. Who is at risk in the neighborhood--poor people, people with
disabilities, others? Are children at risk on the streets, recreation
centers, and at school?


"Promote the General Welfare"

"It is too early for politicians to presume on our forgetting that the
public good, the real welfare of the great body of the people, is the
supreme object to be pursued; and that no form of government whatever
has any other value that as it may be fitted for the attainment of
this object."
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, 1787
"The Americans...are fond of explaining almost all the actions of
their lives by the principle of self-interest rightly understood; they
show with complacency how an enlightened regard for themselves
constantly prompts them to assist one another and inclines them
willing to sacrifice a portion of their time and property to the
welfare of the state." 
--Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America,
1833
"We believe that this class of American citizens should protest
emphatically and continually against the curtailment of their
political rights...We believe also in protest against the curtailment
of our civil rights...We especially complain against the denial of
equal opportunities to us in economic life...Common school education
should be free to all American children and compulsory. High school
training should be adequately provided for all, and college training
should be the monopoly of no class or race in any section of our
common country...We plead for health--for an opportunity to live in
decent houses and localities for a chance to raise our children in
physical and moral cleanliness...And while we are demanding the rights
enumerated above, God forbid that we should ever forget to urge
corresponding duties upon our people: The duty to vote. The duty to
respect the rights of others. The duty to work. The duty to obey the
laws. The duty to be clean and orderly. The duty to send our children
to school. The duty to respect ourselves, even as we respect others."
--The Niagra Movement Leading to the NAACP, 1895
"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for
your country." 
--John F. Kennedy, "Inaugural Address," 1961

Questions for Developing a Social Contract

1.
2. Each of the passages that introduce this section demonstrate that
Americans often take pride in working together for "the general
welfare," for the public good. Can the residents of the neighborhood
develop this ethic in addressing the problems that they face?
3.
4. Given the threats to personal and neighborhood security identified
in the previous discussion, what responsibility will homeowners,
landlords, tenants, and managers and residents of public housing play
in promoting the "general welfare" in relation to crime, physical
appearance, and children? What responsibility will residents and
businesses take for creating economic opportunity for disadvantaged
community residents?
5.
Following these questions, we offer specific examples of programs
addressing neighborhood problems that presume a social contract. Can
the leadership of the neighborhood build a comprehensive "social
contract for the general welfare" on this basis?


Sample Social Contract Programs for the General Welfare

Toward a Safe Neighborhood
--Residents agree to patrol the streets and watch out for each others'
homes as part of a Town Watch organization.
--Residents work with the police and the courts in developing
strategies to deal with crime and drugs as part of a community
policing system and establish their own neighborhood justice system in
cooperation with the courts to adjudicate minor juvenile offenses.

Toward an Attractive Neighborhood
--Residents join a Clean Blocks Program whereby the City performs
special trash collection in response to organized block cleanups and
participate in a City waste recycling program.
--Residents work with the City and banks to develop a strategies for
rehabilitation and occupany of vacant housing in the neighborhood and
seek access to vacant land for community gardens.

Toward a Decent Place to Raise Children--Our "Posterity"
--Parents work in partnership with the neighborhood school to insure
that young people are doing their homework and that the teachers are
meeting their educational needs.
--Residents cooperate with the City Recreation Department in
developing and managing programs in area recreation centers and work
with City anti-graffiti programs to find locations for former wall
writers to paint murals.

Toward Economic Opportunity
--Neighborhood businesses agree to hire neighborhood residents and
City job placement and training agencies agree to recruit trainees
from neighborhood job banks.
--Neighborhood residents agree to volunteer in adult literacy programs
aimed at helping disadvantaged members of the neighborhood improve
basic civic and vocational skills.

"To Form a More Perfect Union"
"This picture of the consequences of disunion cannot be too highly
colored, or too often exhibited. Every man who loves peace, every man
who loves his country, every man who loves liberty ought to have it
ever before his eyes that he may cherish in his heart a due attachment
to the Union of America and be able to set a due value on the means of
preserving it." 
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, 1787
"Citizens who are individually powerless do not very clearly
anticipate the strength that they may acquire by uniting together; it
must be shown to them in order to be understood... In politics men
combine for great undertakings, and the use they make of the principle
of association in important affairs practically teaches them that it
is their interest to help one another in those of less
moment...Political associations may therefore may be seen as large
free schools, where all the members of the community go to learn the
theory of association." 
--Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in
America, 1833
"What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in
the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is
not violence or lawlessness, but love and wisdom, and compassion
toward one another, and a feeling of justice towards those who still
suffer within our country, whether they be white or black." 
--Robert
F. Kennedy, 1968

Questions for Discussion

1.
2. The "disunion" mentioned by James Madison was disunion among the
States. "Disunion" in America today often occurs within communities
and neighborhoods. Will a shared sense of pride in adhering to
America's fundamental ideals provide a basis for all residents--
whether they are homeowners, tenants, or residents of public housing--
to unite on behalf of a social contract proposed by neighborhood
leaders?
3.
4. Alexis de Tocqueville pointed out that participation itself,
especially in political action, contributed to "association?" What
sort of participation will neighbors in varied circumstances undertake
to promote the general welfare social contract, in relation to
security, physical appearance, and children? To what extent will
neighborhood residents unite with the unemployed and low-income
residents of the community to secure opportunity as defined by the
social contract?
5.
6. What will government and business do to promote unity around the
social contract in relation to security, physical appearance, and
children? How will they join with citizens to assist the at- risk
members of the community? Will government and business see themselves
as active contributors to this process?
7.
8. "To Establish Justice"
9. "Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society.
It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or
until liberty be lost in the pursuit. In a society under the forms of
which the stronger faction may as truly be said to reign as in a state
of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the
violence of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the
stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their
condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as
well as themselves..." 
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, 1787
10. "The American Constitution does resemble the Spanish Inquisition
in this: that it is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth with
dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of
Independence, perhaps the only piece of practical politics that is
also theoretical politics and also great literature. It enunciates
that all men are equal in their claim to justice, that governments
exist to give them that justice, and that their authority is for that
reason just...It is the pure classic conception that no man must
aspire to be anything more than a citizen, and that no man shall
endure to be anything less." 
--G.K. Chesterton, What I Saw in
America, 1903
11. "White America must recognize that justice for black people
cannot be achieved without radical changes in the structure of our
society. The comfortable, the entrenched, the privileged cannot
continue to tremble at the prospect of change in the status quo. 
--
Martin Luther King, A Testament of Hope, posthumous, 1969
12.
13. Questions for Discussion
14.
1.
2. Underlying the proposed neighborhood social contract will be a
basic principle of justice. In defining the "justice" presumed by the
Constitution, Madison envisaged an America in which the strong would
not exploit the weak. How will the efforts to deal with crime,
physical decay, the development of children, and poverty defined by
the social contract promote this kind of justice?
3.
4. Some say that "justice" is served when the economy sorts out
"winners" and "losers" on the principle of letting the "fittest
survive." Does the social contract presume that only the "fittest"--
that is, people with certain ethnic or economic characteristics--
should be in the neighborhood? Is this consistent with justice under
the Constitution?
5.
6. The Golden Rule says that we should "love thy neighbor as
thyself." Under the new social contract, can the neighborhood be
brought to accept this conception of justice, in relation to all
residents?


Planet Visitor II


 




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