A Travel and vacations forum. TravelBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » TravelBanter forum » Travel Regions » Australia & New Zealand
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old December 11th, 2008, 01:30 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 275
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

[Crossposted to rec.travel.usa-canada and rec.travel.australia+nz

For 'reasons' you don't want to know/hear, this time we ended up in
the US - well, actually California, not the real US, but you get my
drift.

I've been to the US on many business trips and worked in California
for about ten weeks. As the rta+n audience is probably painfully aware
of, we pestered the Aussies with not just one trip down-under, but seven
of them. So I feel - probably totally unjustified - qualified to comment
on the US/California from an Oz-traveller's perspective.

So enjoy/suffer, or hit 'n(ext)' NOW.

I won't comment on the 'immigration' disgrace. After all, it's not
fair to judge a country and its people on their government/
'administration', is it? OTOH, I probably *could* be persuaded to
elaborate.

In no particular order, mainly in order of occurance.

1. American rental car rates are a steal.

We payed only 22 Euro - about 28 US$ - per day for a 'compact' car,
including full insurance. Are you kidding me!? For that kind of
money, why would you want to buy/own/maintain a car?

2. Contrary to urban legend, American cars actually *do* have a boot/trunk.

The lady at Alamo/National tried to convince us that our two small
suitcases would not fit in the boot/trunk/whatever and tried to
prove that with silly graphics. She offered a quite expensive
upgrade to a 'mid-size'. Being quite dead after the long flight from
Munich (*Don't* ask!), we fell for it. At light the next morning, we
saw that the mid-size didn't only fit our suitcases, but also those
of the whole bloody motel. So we went back and got the booked
compact. We could choose it ourselves and opted for a sporty
two-door Chevy Cobalt. A very nice car, for an American one, that
is. Sadly enough my wife didn't appreciate me, temporarily,
exchanging her for a 20-year old, otherwise I would've looked even
'hotter' than I already did.

3. American cars have built-in invisible nice-ladies.

When we picked up the car it was dark and we could not read the
driving instructions to the motel, so I pulled over and (thought I)
switched on the interior light. A nice lady said: "Are you in
trouble? Can I help you?". I explained what I tried to accomplish.
While she could not point me to the right switch, it was a nice but
somewhat scary experience. The whole trip, we were *very* careful,
not to push the 'nice_lady-button' again.

4. American petrol/gas stations charge what they bloody well like.

While American petrol/gas prices are still ridiculously low compared
to Oz/Europe, prices vary by upto a *factor* of two within a short
distance, sometimes even a few miles or even less. I realize that
there's hardly any tax part in the price, so it's mostly 'cost', but
the real cost can't vary that much within such a small area.

5. Americans don't quite grasp what the 'G' in GSM stands for.

They apparently think it means 'the whole world except us', so they
use a different, incompatible frequency.
Luckily our son has more mobile phones than underpants, so he gave
us - no less than three - 'old' multi-band ones. Problem solved, at
least we *thought* so.

6. Americans don't quite grasp that SIMs can be put in *other* phones.

Having a multi-band phone, I went to buy a pre-paid SIM. No such
thing in the US! You can only buy a SIM *and* phone. Duh! I already
*have* a (compatible) phone, *three* of them!

7. Americans don't grasp that mobile phones are actually ... ummm ...
*phones*.

When I wanted/needed to register the pre-paid AT&T GoPhone mobile
phone which I had to buy, AT&T insisted on having me use *another*
phone to perform the registration procedure. Duh! What about using
the bloody mobile phone itself, like is done in every other
country!?

8. Americans don't realize that salt-lakes don't need mobile-phone
coverage, but that towns *do*.

When we found out that our (main) credit-card was blocked (In the
*US*, with a blocked credit-card! The sheer horror!), we also found
that there was no mobile-phone coverage in Lone Pine. Later I saw on
the coverage maps, that by stunning engineering the network people
managed to fully cover the big salt-lake to the south-east of the
town, while completely evading the town itself. No mean feat!

9. Americans can't drive.

They have the "Keep your lane" *theory*, which has its advantages
and disadvantages, but they interpret it in *practice* as "Keep the
left lane", which is the worst of all possible solutions, because
now some of them find themselves behind a slower car in the right
(pun unintented) lane, and have to merge into *faster* traffic,
instead of into slower.

On single-lane (per direction) roads, it's even worse. They don't
know how to (not) overtake. Suddenly they find themselves behind
another car, which is driving *less* than umpteen percent over the
speed limit. Totally confused, they stay there, bumper to bumper,
for several minutes. Then they apparently realize that that is not
a particularly civil thing to do and back off. Next they stay
*there* for many more minutes, waiting for the opportunity where
they can't pass or/and it's not allowed to pass. *Then* they pass.
Well, actually they don't. They do something and move to the left.
When a front to front collision is imminent, their automatic gearbox
apparently decides that the car actually *can* accelerate, and they
miss their opponent by an inch, and are on their way to their next
attempt to kill eachother.

10. Americans don't have coffee.

Of course we were not stupid enough to just ask for "coffee". After
all we've been to Oz and know that "coffee" is not for human
consumption. So we check if they have 'speciality' coffees. Some of
them have the audacity to claim that they have cappuccino, but that
has everything *other* than (espresso) coffee and steamed milk in
it, and is splattered with all kind of silly syrups which make your
eyes pop. All in all, we had only four decent/good coffees, two of
which in San Francisco. Rather pathetic.

N.B. Of course the Americans also do not have beer, but that fact is
so indisputable, I won't have to get into *that* one.

11. Americans don't realize that you don't *have* to 'deep' fry fish.

Why do they insist on deep frying perfectly good fish, even in
places which are directly on the coast, like Morro Bay and
(Fisherman's Warf in) San Francisco? If they don't *like* fish, then
why not just not order/eat it!? No sense in ruining it for others.

Now some - somewhat - nice comments:

12. Americans know how to merge onto freeways.

Because they're wimps, they merge onto freeways quite flawlessly and
their opponents on the freeway let them get away with it! What's
*wrong* with these people!? Don't they know that if you want to
merge onto a freeway, you just switch on your indicator (if you're
an idiot) and move to the left, tough sh*t on the other guy(s)! And
the other guy(s) do everything in their power, like brake/
accelerate, to prevent them get away with it! *That* is how you/we
do these things!

13. The American all-way stop system on road-crossings is nice.

It takes a little get used to and is sometimes not very efficient,
but it's safe and nice.

14. Americans actually stop for pedestrians.

This one also takes getting used to, but also is quite nice and
safe. Sometimes you're not even trying or wanting to cross the
street and you see stopped cars all around, patiently waiting for
you to make up your bloody mind.

15. Americans are mostly nice, friendly people.

We mostly met and talked with nice, friendly people. That's of
course because we're so bloody nice ourselves.

Some noteable examples out of (very) many:

The ranger at the Joshua Tree Visitor Centre, oops, Center was so
nice and enthousiastic that we changed our plan/route according to
his recommendations, and loved every minute of it.

A car salesman with a good sense of humo[u]r: In Pahrump (Nevada) we
walked from the motel to the 'restaurant'. We passed a car-sales
outfit and the salesman said "Oh, people without a car, and they
have to *walk*! How sad!". I said he could sell me a car if he would
deliver it to my home for a thousand bucks, but he didn't fell for
it. Good on him! (Yes, that's actually proper proper English!)

To put things in perspective, they were even so nice to give us a
reference point in a staff-member from hell in a Best Western motel
somewhere. To set the tone, she was 'preceded' by two young,
clueless, incompetent and inaudible others. She managed to treat us
like dirt / non-existing for problems which the *motel* caused.

Well, that's about it I think, at least for the moment. If anyone is
interested in our actual trip - i.e. where we went, why, what we saw,
etc. - then let me know.

If anyone has any doubts, we *loved* our trip and would do something
similar again in a flash, so you Seppos aren't all that bad!
  #2  
Old December 11th, 2008, 02:25 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Mike O'Sullivan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 428
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

You don't even mention their "bacon".
  #3  
Old December 11th, 2008, 05:11 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
AZ Nomad[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 321
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:30:33 +0100, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[Crossposted to rec.travel.usa-canada and rec.travel.australia+nz


7. Americans don't grasp that mobile phones are actually ... ummm ...
*phones*.


When I wanted/needed to register the pre-paid AT&T GoPhone mobile
phone which I had to buy, AT&T insisted on having me use *another*
phone to perform the registration procedure. Duh! What about using
the bloody mobile phone itself, like is done in every other
country!?

usually the procedure involves popping out the battery and reading
back the ESN and also power cycling the phone. It's kind of difficult
to remain on a call if your phone is powered down.


9. Americans can't drive.


They have the "Keep your lane" *theory*, which has its advantages
and disadvantages, but they interpret it in *practice* as "Keep the
left lane", which is the worst of all possible solutions, because
now some of them find themselves behind a slower car in the right
(pun unintented) lane, and have to merge into *faster* traffic,
instead of into slower.


Absolutely no argument there. It varies by area with cities being
the most aggressive, and rural areas being the most clueless.

America is a society of "me first **** you" and instant gratification.
Drivers don't plan ahead; when a lane change is necessary, the person
expects to be able to simply shove their way between the two cars in
the desired lane. They won't signal of course, because the other cars
seeing the impending car about to slide into 1.001 carlengths will close
the gap. I always signal. I always plan my lane changes so I have
plenty of time. If you signal and are willing to wait a whole 10
seconds, traffic will almost always open a gap to let you in.

America also has a love affair with the car with it being a status
symbol. The usual rule of thumb is "the smaller the dick, the bigger
the truck." I couldn't help laughing at the idiots with their gas
guzzlers when gas tripled in price last summer.

I've found some amusing tactics. For example, on my way to work, there
were two exit lanes on the right of a blvd for a highway. The left lane
could be used for east or westbound on the highway. The right lane
was westbound only. I needed to go west bound on my trip to work, but
everybody east and westbound was piled up in the right lane backing up
at least 3 traffic light cycles. I'd be the first in the middle lane
at a red light and need to merge to the right. Of course MFFY driver
in the right couldn't permit me to get ahead of him. My tactic was
simple. Floor it. Let the driver on the right do the same to cut
me off. The slow down and get in the nice gap he opened up behind
himself.

The main trick is to let the uber agressive drivers get ahead of you.
It's easier to see when they wreck and get out of their way if one is
behind them. It is amazing that they never save time. Half the time
I'll pass them later while they're stuck behind a truck or buss because
they are incapable of looking down the road to plan ahead.

As far as lane discpline and passing on the left, it varies by region.
The midwest is the worst, the north east is the best. Driving around
boston, I actually experienced drivers staying on the right, using
the left to pass and then returning to the right. Imagine that!
The standard california lane change is to put the signal on (optional)
close one's eyes, and then slowly drift into the lane of choice. The
other cars are expected to get out of the way.
  #4  
Old December 11th, 2008, 05:20 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
pltrgyst[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:30:33 +0100, Frank Slootweg wrote:

1. American rental car rates are a steal.

We payed only 22 Euro - about 28 US$ - per day for a 'compact' car,
including full insurance. Are you kidding me!? For that kind of
money, why would you want to buy/own/maintain a car?


Because $28*365 = $10,000+ ?

3. American cars have built-in invisible nice-ladies....


Some American cities, like Las Vegas, are chock full of "nice-ladies" willing to
hop into your car.

4. American petrol/gas stations charge what they bloody well like.

While American petrol/gas prices are still ridiculously low compared
to Oz/Europe, prices vary by upto a *factor* of two within a short
distance, sometimes even a few miles or even less....


It doesn't, anywhere. You must have misread the signs (or been looking at rental
car company top-off rates).

5. Americans don't quite grasp what the 'G' in GSM stands for.

They apparently think it means 'the whole world except us', so they
use a different, incompatible frequency....


And non-Americans don't generally realize that the US has two competing cell
phone technologies. And that the non-GSM technology actually has significant
advantages under some conditions, and offers generally better coverage in the
US. It's not just the frequency that is different.

6. Americans don't quite grasp that SIMs can be put in *other* phones.


That's because our GSM carriers are allowed to sell their phones "locked" to
their system only. Sad.

8. Americans don't realize that salt-lakes don't need mobile-phone
coverage, but that towns *do*.

.... by stunning engineering the network people
managed to fully cover the big salt-lake to the south-east of the
town, while completely evading the town itself. No mean feat!


This is probably not the fault of the network people. In the US, some towns have
actually decided that they do not want cell phone coverage, and refuse to allow
the installation of cell phone towers/antennae.

9. Americans can't drive.


Agreed, in general. However, some of use thrive quite nicely on your
autobahns/motorways.

10. Americans don't have coffee.


We do; we just don't believe that real coffee is for just anyone. Hence we
created these "Charbucks" places to service desperate foreigners. It's a
"balance-of-payments" thing.

N.B. Of course the Americans also do not have beer, but that fact is
so indisputable, I won't have to get into *that* one.


Good, because you're wrong. The US these days has a greater variety of
outstanding beer -- including ales -- than any other nation on earth. OTOH, on
my visits to A+NZ, I have never once encountered a beer with any character. I
suspect that Fosters and the like are fronts for repackaged Budweiser.

11. Americans don't realize that you don't *have* to 'deep' fry fish.


Americans do, however, realize that if you don't want fried fish, you shouldn't
seek out resturants that sell only fried fish.

13. The American all-way stop system on road-crossings is nice.


Not really. Most Americans are too dumb and poorly trained to execute the "yield
to the right" theory behind all-way stops.

If anyone has any doubts, we *loved* our trip and would do something
similar again in a flash, so you Seppos aren't all that bad!


Glad you enjoyed yourselves. Come again. 8

-- Larry
  #5  
Old December 11th, 2008, 05:50 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Eric Griswold
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

Frank Slootweg writes:

mostly true stuff

10. Americans don't have coffee.


We do, but we don't tell the tourists where it is. Same is true for
ales; lagers not so much.

Eric

  #6  
Old December 11th, 2008, 09:41 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 275
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:30:33 +0100, Frank Slootweg wrote:
[Crossposted to rec.travel.usa-canada and rec.travel.australia+nz


7. Americans don't grasp that mobile phones are actually ... ummm ...
*phones*.


When I wanted/needed to register the pre-paid AT&T GoPhone mobile
phone which I had to buy, AT&T insisted on having me use *another*
phone to perform the registration procedure. Duh! What about using
the bloody mobile phone itself, like is done in every other
country!?


usually the procedure involves popping out the battery and reading
back the ESN and also power cycling the phone. It's kind of difficult
to remain on a call if your phone is powered down.


You need the ICCID of the SIM ('SmartChip TM') and the IMEI number.
Both are on labels on the outside of the package in which the phone,
etc. comes. So no need to power down.

The "Start here to activate your GoPhone(R) Service" leaflet
painstakingly explains all of that, also in Spanish :-), but even if you
don't RTFM (*Moi*?), the nice computerized lady explains what to get
where and even waits till you're done! I *love* nice computerized
ladies!

But more to the point, in other, albeit civilized :-), countries,
mobile-phone SPs don't need all that mumbo-jumbo, the phones come
working right out-of-the-box, including the phone number. You just can't
call anybody *else*, before you've registered [1] the phone by using the
very same phone. Makes kind of sense doesn't it!?

[Other comments - thanks - deleted.]

[1] I don't think I *had* to register my Dutch SIM. They just *wanted*
you to register and gave you a bonus (free credit) if/when you did.
I *did* have to register my Australian Vodafone and Telstra SIMs, and I
had to (sort of) register myself when buying them. ("What's your address
in Australia?". Duh! I'm a bloody furrin tourist, ain't I?
  #7  
Old December 11th, 2008, 10:06 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Bert Hyman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 724
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

In b.home.nl Frank
Slootweg wrote:

I don't think I *had* to register my Dutch SIM. They just *wanted*
you to register and gave you a bonus (free credit) if/when you did.
I *did* have to register my Australian Vodafone and Telstra SIMs, and
I had to (sort of) register myself when buying them. ("What's your
address in Australia?". Duh! I'm a bloody furrin tourist, ain't I?


I travelled to Norway last year and for the first time decided to take a
phone with me, so I borrowed an unlocked GSM phone from a friend.

Thinking I was being clever, I bought a pre-paid Netcom Norway SIM card
from an outfit I found on the Web, so I'd have a working phone as soon
as I got to Bergen.

When I turned on the phone, I almost immediately received a text message
from Netcom telling me to reply with my name and birthday to register
the phone. Of course, since I wasn't a Norwegian citizen, they couldn't
find me in their database (the phone company has immediate access to
such data?) and the registration failed. I was able to talk to Netcom
customer service though, and was told I'd have to go to a retail outlet
with my passport and register before they'd turn the phone on.

The clerk there told me this was a relatively new (at the time)
requirement, apparently based on anti-terrorism laws.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN
  #8  
Old December 11th, 2008, 10:10 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Bert Hyman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 724
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

In .home.nl Frank
Slootweg wrote:

5. Americans don't quite grasp what the 'G' in GSM stands for.

They apparently think it means 'the whole world except us', so they
use a different, incompatible frequency.


Most likely due to regulatory issues or already-occupied spectrum.

Nothing personal.

Quad-band phones are easy to come by, but 3G adds a new incompatibility.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN
  #9  
Old December 11th, 2008, 10:12 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Bert Hyman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 724
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

In .home.nl Frank
Slootweg wrote:

6. Americans don't quite grasp that SIMs can be put in *other*
phones.

Having a multi-band phone, I went to buy a pre-paid SIM. No such
thing in the US! You can only buy a SIM *and* phone. Duh! I
already *have* a (compatible) phone, *three* of them!


Both T-Mobile and AT&T sell naked SIM cards for their pre-paid services
in their retail stores. Those stand-alone kiosks you find in shopping
malls are often operated by independent contractors who might not know
what you're talking about though.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN
  #10  
Old December 11th, 2008, 10:31 PM posted to rec.travel.usa-canada,rec.travel.australia+nz
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 275
Default Report from the US, a nice but somewhat backward country.

pltrgyst wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:30:33 +0100, Frank Slootweg wrote:

1. American rental car rates are a steal.

We payed only 22 Euro - about 28 US$ - per day for a 'compact' car,
including full insurance. Are you kidding me!? For that kind of
money, why would you want to buy/own/maintain a car?


Because $28*365 = $10,000+ ?


Believe it or not, but for (most of) Europe that's a *good* deal, for
*such* a car, which is mostly *new* (*both* of ours had less than 4,000
miles on them).

As a reference: I drive a Renault Clio, which is much, much smaller.
It is 4 years old. I have *maximum* (70+%) discount on my insurance
premium (because of no claims in a long time). *That* small 'old' car,
under those rosy conditions, already costs me some US$ 270 per month,
3240 per year (of course without petrol/gas, i.e. apples-to-apples).

[...]

4. American petrol/gas stations charge what they bloody well like.

While American petrol/gas prices are still ridiculously low compared
to Oz/Europe, prices vary by upto a *factor* of two within a short
distance, sometimes even a few miles or even less....


It doesn't, anywhere. You must have misread the signs (or been looking
at rental car company top-off rates).


No, we didn't misread. Trust me, we are *very* careful reading fuel
prices, especially considering we drove/drive 'around the world' in Oz a
couple of times in very thirsty campervans.

The extremes were on highway 395, probably somewhere between where
89 joins from the west and Bridgeport in the south. Next time I'll make
pictures! :-)

5. Americans don't quite grasp what the 'G' in GSM stands for.

They apparently think it means 'the whole world except us', so they
use a different, incompatible frequency....


And non-Americans don't generally realize that the US has two competing cell
phone technologies. And that the non-GSM technology actually has significant
advantages under some conditions, and offers generally better coverage in the
US. It's not just the frequency that is different.


The US isn't at all special in that respect. Europe and Oz each also
had and have competing cell phone technologies.

6. Americans don't quite grasp that SIMs can be put in *other* phones.


That's because our GSM carriers are allowed to sell their phones "locked" to
their system only. Sad.


Again, no news there. Same story in Europe/Oz.

But, as you say, the *phones* are locked, not the *SIMs*. So if you
have an unlocked phone (which I had), you can put the American SIM in
there and it will work just fine, and that's what I did and it did. I.e.
there is no need for another phone if the customer has an unlocked
phone.

8. Americans don't realize that salt-lakes don't need mobile-phone
coverage, but that towns *do*.

.... by stunning engineering the network people
managed to fully cover the big salt-lake to the south-east of the
town, while completely evading the town itself. No mean feat!


This is probably not the fault of the network people. In the US, some
towns have actually decided that they do not want cell phone coverage,
and refuse to allow the installation of cell phone towers/antennae.


I 'hear' you, but I don't think that's the case here. If I can be
bothered, I'll try to re-find the actaul coverage map. It's *so* weird
that *missing* antennas don't explain it.

[...]

10. Americans don't have coffee.


We do; we just don't believe that real coffee is for just anyone. Hence we
created these "Charbucks" places to service desperate foreigners. It's a
"balance-of-payments" thing.


I think you confuse foreigners with people-without-taste. While there
surely *is* an overlap, and probably a big one, they aren't the same
set.

N.B. Of course the Americans also do not have beer, but that fact is
so indisputable, I won't have to get into *that* one.


Good, because you're wrong. The US these days has a greater variety of
outstanding beer -- including ales -- than any other nation on earth. OTOH, on
my visits to A+NZ, I have never once encountered a beer with any character. I
suspect that Fosters and the like are fronts for repackaged Budweiser.


Same here. You can't mention Fosters or Budweiser when talking about
beer, because they're not. (And no, Heineken isn't either.)

Case in point: On the Lufthansa flight back, I asked the flight
attendant for an American beer. She smiled with pity and gave me a
Warsteiner.

BTW, if you haven't "encountered a beer with any character" in Oz,
then you didn't look very well, IMNSHO.

11. Americans don't realize that you don't *have* to 'deep' fry fish.


Americans do, however, realize that if you don't want fried fish, you
shouldn't seek out resturants that sell only fried fish.


My point (which you snipped) was/is that there *are* no other
restaurants (in those areas). So apparently many/most Americans *do* want/
tolerate such 'food'.

[...]

If anyone has any doubts, we *loved* our trip and would do something
similar again in a flash, so you Seppos aren't all that bad!


Glad you enjoyed yourselves. Come again. 8


Thanks. We will!
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nice Hostels, Cheap Nice Hostels, Reserve a Hostel in Nice, CraigslistHostels.org Albert Europe 0 May 2nd, 2007 04:41 AM
Morocco ... Nice Sunny Country ... Hospitality ... Intelligent People ... !! is one of the Best Destination. [email protected] Europe 1 May 11th, 2006 06:17 AM
Nice hotel in Helsinki for nice price? Jens Jakob Andersen Europe 21 October 10th, 2003 03:59 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 TravelBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.