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  #21  
Old June 12th, 2005, 09:57 PM
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and
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Alfred Molon wrote:

In article 1gy24tr.7gqzjl1hmf60fN%this_address_is_for_spam@y ahoo.com,
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
says...

It's a perfectly good one, and easy to understand. I can't think of any
exceptions to it (can anyone?)- dialect variations notwithstanding. For
example, some people will correctly say "an herb"- others "a herb." All
depends on whether or not the initial "h" is silent or not.


I thought "a herb" was correct.


It depends whether or not you voice the H. It's correct for me to say "a
herb" but in the US, where the H is generally silent, "an herb" is
correct.

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David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
  #22  
Old June 12th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Deep Foiled Malls
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 19:44:34 +0200, Magda ? wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 17:04:12 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, Deep Foiled Malls
arranged some electrons, so they looked like
this :

... On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 00:25:31 +0200, Alfred Molon
... wrote:
...
... In article , Padraig
... Breathnach says...
...
... a European.
...
... It's "an English", but "a European" - why ?
...
... Because it's not the initial letter that determines "a" or "an", but
... the sound of the initial letter that does. European starts with a 'y'
... sound, so it's "a" European.

I don't like your "explanation", guys. Find something better.


There is nothing better. This is the usage, and that is English.

Remember, English is not a language, it's an opinion!
--
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DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #23  
Old June 12th, 2005, 11:12 PM
Deep Foiled Malls
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:53:04 +0200, Alfred Molon
wrote:

In article , Deep Foiled
Malls says...

Nah, it's an English speakers newsgroups. I don't mind reading the odd
bit of swahili stuff here, but it's 99.5% English, and should be
treated as such.


And "swahili stuff" is insulting.


LOL! Yeah, sure, who is going to feel insulted by that?
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #24  
Old June 12th, 2005, 11:15 PM
dgs
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Terry Richards wrote:

"Magda " ? wrote in message
...

Y sounds like a vowel to me. And E *looks* like a vowel, too !

The vowel sounds are the ones you can sing. They are entirely formed by the
throat & mouth without the involvement of the tongue or lips. All of the
consonants involve the tongue.


Make an "aaaaaa" (short a) sound. Now make an "eeeeeeeee" sound.
You're saying the tongue doesn't move?

Now make an "oooooooooo" sound - as in "pool." The lips don't move?

I think you meant that, with vowels, the tongue and lips are held in
a certain position for the duration of the sound. This isn't so for
consonants, including the "y" in "yes" or "youth."

There are better, if rather more complicated, explanations for the
differences between vowels in consonants. The term covering the "y"
examples above has already been used he "a voiced palatal
semivocalic consonant."

European is pronounced (in English) as if it has a (consonant) Y at the
beginning and thus, quite properly, is associated with "a". If you were to
pronounce it French-style (ooropean) then it would associate with "an".


Just exactly so. Or if the "Eu" was pronounced German-style, where it
sounds like "Oi."
--
dgs
"What, and join in your mad squid kettle games?" -- Lew Bryson
  #25  
Old June 12th, 2005, 11:15 PM
Deep Foiled Malls
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On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 11:32:58 -0700, "Ken Blake"
wrote:

In ,
Deep Foiled Malls
typed:

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:45:12 -0700, "Ken Blake"
wrote:

In
,
Gerrit 't Hart typed:

"algiardino" wrote in message
oups.com...

Le bed and breakfast "Al Giardino" se trouve près de Centro
Historique
de Venise, en Italie. Les nôtre bed and breakfast il loue des
chambres


And I thought this was an English language newsgroup.

You were wrong. It's an International newsgroup, where all
languages are welcome.


Nah, it's an English speakers newsgroups. I don't mind reading
the odd
bit of swahili stuff here, but it's 99.5% English, and should
be
treated as such.



Nope. It's true that it's overwhelmingly English, but that
doesn't make it a requirement. It's an international group (as
are almost all newsgroups, unless explicitly stated otherwise).

You are free, of course, to read or not read whatever posts you
want, choosing by language, poster, or any other criterion you
like.


That's fine by me. In practice though, it's limited to French, and the
rare bit of Spanish, Italian or German. No-one would seriously post in
any other language.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #26  
Old June 12th, 2005, 11:51 PM
dgs
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Magda wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:09:14 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, Deep Foiled Malls
arranged some electrons, so they looked like
this :


... I don't like your "explanation", guys. Find something better.
...
... There is nothing better. This is the usage, and that is English.
...
... Remember, English is not a language, it's an opinion!

So, my opinion does not count ?


Not if your opinion is wrong.

The English indefinite article to use with "European" is "a." Fact, not
opinion. The grammatical reasons for this have already been explained.

One thing that English very much is not: logical.
--
dgs
"What, and join in your mad squid kettle games?" -- Lew Bryson
  #27  
Old June 13th, 2005, 12:16 AM
Alfred Molon
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In article 1gy2cv0.1a8jl3q34jrnlN%this_address_is_for_spam@y ahoo.com,
chancellor of the duchy of besses o' th' barn and prestwich tesco
says...

I thought "a herb" was correct.


It depends whether or not you voice the H. It's correct for me to say "a
herb" but in the US, where the H is generally silent, "an herb" is
correct.


Since this is a European group, we'll use the British English spelling.
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from China, Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria,
Prague, Budapest, Singapore and Portugal
  #28  
Old June 13th, 2005, 12:18 AM
Alfred Molon
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In article , dgs says...

Opinions are not "right" or "wrong".


It is my opinion that the earth is flat. (Channeling Mixi!)


That's correct. Spheres are flat.
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from China, Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria,
Prague, Budapest, Singapore and Portugal
  #29  
Old June 13th, 2005, 12:18 AM
Alfred Molon
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In article , Deep Foiled
Malls says...

Nah, it's an English speakers newsgroups. I don't mind reading the odd
bit of swahili stuff here, but it's 99.5% English, and should be
treated as such.


And "swahili stuff" is insulting.


LOL! Yeah, sure, who is going to feel insulted by that?


Black Africans and Europeans
--

Alfred Molon

http://www.molon.de/Galleries.htm - Photos from China, Myanmar, Brunei,
Malaysia, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Nepal, Egypt, Germany, Austria,
Prague, Budapest, Singapore and Portugal
  #30  
Old June 13th, 2005, 12:26 AM
dgs
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Magda wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 15:51:09 -0700, in rec.travel.europe, dgs
arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

... Magda wrote:
...
... On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:09:14 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, Deep Foiled Malls
... arranged some electrons, so they looked like
... this :
...
...
... ... I don't like your "explanation", guys. Find something better.
... ...
... ... There is nothing better. This is the usage, and that is English.
... ...
... ... Remember, English is not a language, it's an opinion!
...
... So, my opinion does not count ?
...
... Not if your opinion is wrong.

Opinions are not "right" or "wrong".


It is my opinion that the earth is flat. (Channeling Mixi!)

You can state an opinion and still have stated something wrong within
that opinion, or started with a wrong premise in forming the opinion.

English has had, perhaps, more randomness added to it than many other
languages, particularly in orthography. Blame the Normans for that.
They initiated some changes back in 1066. We still haven't quite gotten
over it.

... The English indefinite article to use with "European" is "a." Fact, not
... opinion. The grammatical reasons for this have already been explained.
...
... One thing that English very much is not: logical.

No kidding. Do you know many logical languages ? I don't.


In terms of orthography, English stands out for being "illogical."
Languages like German, Dutch, and Russian are quite "logical" by
comparison. Never mind all that stuff about genders, cases, and
declensions; that's for another time.

ObSortOfOnTopic: I really should get around to visiting Venice before
it becomes completely inundated. But this year, it's Krakow.
--
dgs
"What, and join in your mad squid kettle games?" -- Lew Bryson
 




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