Air France? Ptui!

"Geoff Miller" a écrit dans le message de news:
...


Barry Gold writes:


Why is it always we Americans who are expected to adjust, and never
people of other nationalities? What's up with that?

What is your proficiency in French ? Spanish, ? German ? Are you even able
to speak another foreign language properly ? Nobody around this world ask
you to adjust to other nationalities, but make just a little effort and you
will discover another world. Personaly I speak English, German and Spanish.
For the last 20 years I travelled all around the world, I felt at ease with
some languages ( Russian, Thai,Arabic, Chinese and Swahili) but totally
uneased with some others( Tagalog, Shona and N'debele).
Just try to learn few words such as Hello, Good by, Thank you, and you will
see a change...

"Geoff Miller" a écrit dans le message de news:
...


Padraig Breathnach writes:

There is a simple expedient: ask first if somebody understands
English. Even if he or she does not, the request usually creates
a positive disposition. Gestures, smiles (always useful), co-
operation, and patience complete the job.


I find that simply raising my voice is often surprisingly effective.
("Listen up, frog-face!")

Well, say that to me in a street of France and you'll see the result...

"Sovereign" wrote in message
...

"Geoff Miller" a écrit dans le message de news:
...


Barry Gold writes:


Why is it always we Americans who are expected to adjust, and never
people of other nationalities? What's up with that?

What is your proficiency in French ? Spanish, ? German ? Are you even
able to speak another foreign language properly ? Nobody around this world
ask you to adjust to other nationalities, but make just a little effort
and you will discover another world. Personaly I speak English, German and
Spanish. For the last 20 years I travelled all around the world, I felt at
ease with some languages ( Russian, Thai,Arabic, Chinese and Swahili) but
totally uneased with some others( Tagalog, Shona and N'debele).
Just try to learn few words such as Hello, Good by, Thank you, and you
will see a change...

Thank you for the good advice. And now I have learned four new phrases,
"Hello," Good Bye," "Thank you," and "You will see a change." And they are
all in English too. What could be easier?

Geoff Miller wrote:
Barry Gold writes:


Overall, I've found the French helpful if you will just take the
trouble to learn a few hundred words of French and use them.


You're aware, of course, that the international language of aviation
is -- wait for it -- English? I see no reason why that should be
limited to just radio communication. I submit that anyone in the
employ of an international air carrier whose job involves dealing
with passengers should have at least a working knowledge of English.

Even if they do not normally fly routes that encompass
English-speaking countries? (That seems rather chauvinistic
- are you American, by any chance?)


(The international language of diplomacy remains French, so it isn't
as though Francophones have been dissed or marginalized.)



OTOH, if you think that they ought to speak English because that
is the right and proper language, you are likely to get what you
deserve.


You mean, to be addressed in English? That's what *I* think I'd
deserve. Your mileage, as they say, may vary.

Americans are commonly criticized for expecting people to speak
English...in our own country. Anyone who expresses annoyance at
not being able to understand (or be understood by) an immigrant
when conducting business does so at the risk of being set upon
and denounced as a bigot, a xenophobe, and the rest of the usual
liberal laundry list of disparaging terms.

But oddly, the same thing is tolerated, and even admired, in the
French. Especially in the context of dealing with Americans.
Heads they win, tails we lose. "If you'd only just give in a
little, you'd be surprised how pleasant and helpful they can be."

Yeah, but first they have to take their pound (okay, half-kilogram)
of flesh by watching us struggle with _their_ language. There's
always that little ritual to be gotten through first, before the
*******s pull the stick out of their _derriere_ and magically become
so helpful and accomodating.

Why is it always we Americans who are expected to adjust, and never
people of other nationalities? What's up with that?



Geoff

Geoff Miller wrote:

Padraig Breathnach writes:


There is a simple expedient: ask first if somebody understands
English. Even if he or she does not, the request usually creates
a positive disposition. Gestures, smiles (always useful), co-
operation, and patience complete the job.



I find that simply raising my voice is often surprisingly effective.
("Listen up, frog-face!")

I HOPE you're joking! In my college days, I went on a
college-sponsored student tour of Mexico. One of the
accompanying adults (with whom it was my misfortune to ride,
several days of the trip) was a middle-aged American woman
who subscribed to he theory that anyone could understand
English if you spoke it loudly enough. She had been to
Italy, and learned to say "thank you" in Italian (sort of).
She assumed she could get by in Mexico, too with her two
words of Italian - "Gratsee SEENyur"! (Fortunately some of
my fellow passengers were majoring in Spanish, so we
generally ended up the same place as the rest of the group
at day's end.)

Geoff Miller wrote:
Barry Gold writes:

Overall, I've found the French helpful if you will just take the
trouble to learn a few hundred words of French and use them.

You're aware, of course, that the international language of aviation
is -- wait for it -- English? I see no reason why that should be
limited to just radio communication. I submit that anyone in the
employ of an international air carrier whose job involves dealing
with passengers should have at least a working knowledge of English.

It's gone beyond that. English has become the "International Language"
by default. Tourism, business, whatever. If a language other than the
local language is needed it is almost always English.

(The international language of diplomacy remains French, so it isn't
as though Francophones have been dissed or marginalized.)

Actually that last statement is only in the eyes of the French. English
is now the de facto language. Consider: 6 party talks with China and
North Korea and Japan and the US and South Korea (forget the other).
Guess what language they use. It ain't French. If Russia sits down with
Argentina to negotiate a treaty you can bet that there will be one of
three languages spoken: Russian, Spanish or English. Not French.

Even in the last Francophone conference in Vietnam for French speaking
only nations part of it was conducted in English.

The only reason that you still see French in the UN and in passports is
because of the French government's intransigience. Example: when the UN
was selecting a new SG in the last month the French (who have a veto)
said that they would not allow any candidate who did not speak French.
The treaty for passports says that the passport should be in 2
languages: local language plus either English or French. That's because
the French wouldn't approve the treaty without including French.

Sovereign wrote:
"Geoff Miller" a écrit dans le message de news:
...


Barry Gold writes:


Why is it always we Americans who are expected to adjust, and never
people of other nationalities? What's up with that?

Let me answer then comment:

What is your proficiency in French ?

I know maybe a hundred words. I can often read bits of it because of
similarity to other languages.

Spanish, ?

I can read a lot of Spanish because I'm fairly good at Portugueses.

German ?

Limited but not incompetent.

Are you even able to speak another foreign language properly ?

Portuguese and Thai.

Nobody around this world ask
you to adjust to other nationalities, but make just a little effort and you
will discover another world. Personaly I speak English, German and Spanish.
For the last 20 years I travelled all around the world, I felt at ease with
some languages ( Russian, Thai,Arabic, Chinese and Swahili) but totally
uneased with some others( Tagalog, Shona and N'debele).

I'm OK with Russian and N'binda (dialect of Kikongo spoke in the Congo
River basin) meaning I know some words and phrases and a few of the bad
words. :-) Like you I struggle with Tagalog. Never tried Chinese. I've
personally been in 40 or 50 countries and can say that they are all
pretty consistent regarding language abilities of foreigners, except
the French.

Just try to learn few words such as Hello, Good by, Thank you, and you will
see a change...

OK. But not in France. My experience is that if you speak a smattering
of French but your first language is English you still get treated like
dirt. If your first language is other than English then I'd agree with
some here that the French are OK. It's not "failure to speak French"
that offends them, it's speaking English. They are ****ed off because
of their loss in world status due to the Brits and Americans surpassing
them and they are livid because French is now considered a secondary
language in the international community and English is the de facto
world language.

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
Geoff Miller wrote:

You're aware, of course, that the international language of aviation
is -- wait for it -- English? I see no reason why that should be
limited to just radio communication. I submit that anyone in the
employ of an international air carrier whose job involves dealing
with passengers should have at least a working knowledge of English.

Even if they do not normally fly routes that encompass
English-speaking countries? (That seems rather chauvinistic
- are you American, by any chance?)

Yes, that's how it works. The official international language of air
traffic control is English. Even a lot of domestic air traffic control
around the world is done in English because there are often domestic
and international flights in a single control area.

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
Geoff Miller wrote:

You're aware, of course, that the international language of aviation
is -- wait for it -- English? I see no reason why that should be
limited to just radio communication. I submit that anyone in the
employ of an international air carrier whose job involves dealing
with passengers should have at least a working knowledge of English.

Even if they do not normally fly routes that encompass
English-speaking countries? (That seems rather chauvinistic
- are you American, by any chance?)

Yes, that's how it works. The official international language of air
traffic control is English. Even a lot of domestic air traffic control
around the world is done in English because there are often domestic
and international flights in a single control area.

On a pragmatic basis, there has to be a standard, since planes and pilots
are mobile by definition, and go wherever there are paying passengers. I
presume they settled on English, because USA/UK was the 800 lb gorilla of
early passenger aviation, not to mention a whole lotta smaller airports
started as WWII military bases, in CONUS and in less developed countries.
Misunderstood ATC instructions can make people dead, so you standardize on
the language of where the majority of the money comes from.

aem sends...

wrote:
"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
Geoff Miller wrote:

You're aware, of course, that the international language of aviation
is -- wait for it -- English? I see no reason why that should be
limited to just radio communication. I submit that anyone in the
employ of an international air carrier whose job involves dealing
with passengers should have at least a working knowledge of English.

Even if they do not normally fly routes that encompass
English-speaking countries? (That seems rather chauvinistic
- are you American, by any chance?)

Yes, that's how it works. The official international language of air
traffic control is English. Even a lot of domestic air traffic control
around the world is done in English because there are often domestic
and international flights in a single control area.

On a pragmatic basis, there has to be a standard, since planes and pilots
are mobile by definition, and go wherever there are paying passengers. I
presume they settled on English, because USA/UK was the 800 lb gorilla of
early passenger aviation, not to mention a whole lotta smaller airports
started as WWII military bases, in CONUS and in less developed countries.
Misunderstood ATC instructions can make people dead, so you standardize on
the language of where the majority of the money comes from.

I believe you're right. It also explains why English has become the de
facto language of international business and tourism. You can choose,
for example, French and cater to 50 million people with fairly good but
not great incomes, or you can choose English and cater to 10 times as
many people with significantly higher incomes.

Which would you choose?

If you take into consideration everyone who speaks English as a first
language (even the Brits who speak a rather archaic form of English ;-)
), everyone who speaks it at a reasonable level as a second language
(note that this definition prompts the Philippines to promote itself as
the second largest English speaking county in the world), everyone who
lives in a country where English is an "official" language (maybe one
of several) or where the government considers English to be one of the
"official" languages of government, you just defined over half the
world's population.

English won. Good or bad, right or wrong. And the French will never
forgive the UK for inventing it and spreading it all over the world or
the Americans for perfecting it ;-) and using their economic might to
make it de facto in business, travel and diplomacy.