Eliat, Israel

Dave Smith wrote in message ...
Alfred Molon wrote:


The last bombing in Egypt was six years ago, while in Israel there are
bombings every month.

That may be true, but I was responding to the suggestion that there was absolutely no
risk to travel in Egypt. Personally, I would not consider travelling anywhere in the
middle east until those people grow up and learn to get along.

Who, the rec.travel.europe people?

Bjorn

Go Fig wrote:


I saw and heard the Iraqi Doctor and Nurse (as well as PFC Lynch). He
was quite clear, he made NO examination for sexual assault. Do you
think that is important?

They did no specific examination for sexual assault because they undressed her in
the hospital and she was so badly injured that they would not have expected anyone
to rape her.



They were lost. Her gun was jammed.

Interesting definition, I wonder if you hold yourself to that same
standard.

I think that is fits the definition of incompetence more than that of hero.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:53:25 -0800, Go Fig wrote:

In article ,
Dave Smith wrote:

Go Fig wrote:

It seems that the story about her valiant fight, her wounds , her bad
treatment by
the Iraqis and perilous rescue was a total fabrication by the US
administration.
She was in a convoy that got lost and bumbled into an ambush. She was
injured
when
her truck ran off the road. The Iraqi doctors tried to take good care of
her
and
tried to get her back to US lines, but we fired upon by US troops. She
was
not
shot. She was not raped.

This is contrary to what she implies in her book, what the U.S. medical
doctor that examined her.

What is your source ?

What length do you have your word wrap set to ?


That's Jay's way of saying "I don't have a source". If you persist
with him, he may drag up an obscure story alluding to an interpreted
version of twisted allegations.


I have a news paper article from just yesterday, an Associated Press report
of an
interview with her on Veterans Day. She denied reports of her fierce gun
battle,
saying that her gun was jammed and she never fired a shot.
She contradicts reports that the rescue raid encountered resistance saying
that
the Iraqis did not offer any resistance and even offered the troops a key.

What reports of resistance, none were made. Either at the time or now.

Yes, they did. The door knobs were resisting, and appropriate action
was taken.

She
said that the doctors and nurses were thoughtful, gentle people who secretly
tried
to see her to freedom.

The article also reports that Iraqi doctors denied the claims that she had
been
sexually assaulted. While US army doctors may claim other wise I would
suggest that
since Lynch's statements tend to back up the doctors' claims about most other
things and that the army has obviously fabricated just about everything else,
it
becomes a matter of credibility, and that the Iraqi medical staff and Lynch
have
proved themselves to be infinitely more credible.

Really ?

I saw and heard the Iraqi Doctor and Nurse (as well as PFC Lynch). He
was quite clear, he made NO examination for sexual assault. Do you
think that is important?

As PFC Lynch is quite clear about not remembering anything from the time
of the crash to waking up in the hospital... How can she have
credibility on something she can not recall ? In fact, she states that
she hopes she will never recall that period.

It is really simple, Jay, when someone, in this instance the military,
is shown to massively misportray (i.e. lie about) a situation, their
credibility is gone. The Iraqi doctors, who have NOT been shown to be
liars, but heroic life savers, are thus infinitely more credible.
Thus, is you continue you believe the military version, you are a
****ing idiot.

Just what part of this most simple of concepts are you having trouble
with Jay?

Here, Jay, educate yourself with a little flashback to April 3:

************************
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...14879-2003Apr2

Pfc. Jessica Lynch, rescued Tuesday from an Iraqi hospital, fought
fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers after Iraqi forces ambushed
the Army's 507th Ordnance Maintenance Company, firing her weapon until
she ran out of ammunition, U.S. officials said yesterday.

Lynch, a 19-year-old supply clerk, continued firing at the Iraqis even
after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds and watched several other
soldiers in her unit die around her in fighting March 23, one official
said. The ambush took place after a 507th convoy, supporting the
advancing 3rd Infantry Division, took a wrong turn near the southern
city of Nasiriyah.

"She was fighting to the death," the official said. "She did not want
to be taken alive."

Lynch was also stabbed when Iraqi forces closed in on her position,
the official said, noting that initial intelligence reports indicated
that she had been stabbed to death. No official gave any indication
yesterday, however, that Lynch's wounds had been life-threatening.
************************



There was no need for the US troops to kick down
all the
doors in the hospital. To be fair, I suppose it is better to be safe
than
sorry.

What was the basement in this hospital being used for ?

Good question. I don't doubt that propaganda reports would be trying to claim
that
their were arms hidden in it. Given the proven lack of credibility of the
army's
version of the story I give that report as much credit as it may be
worth...none.

Then you didn't see video of the basement with boxes of ammo or hear the
hospital staff saying that the basement was being used as a military HQ.

Cite, if you don't mind. Or is this another thing you have imagined?



OK, what is the 'gross incompetence' ?

They were lost. Her gun was jammed.

Interesting definition, I wonder if you hold yourself to that same
standard.

Getting lost, crashing your vehicle, jamming one's rifle...

That could almost result in someone getting lost and hurt. Somewhat
off what I would deem competent.
--
DFM

In article ,
Dave Smith wrote:

Go Fig wrote:


I saw and heard the Iraqi Doctor and Nurse (as well as PFC Lynch). He
was quite clear, he made NO examination for sexual assault. Do you
think that is important?

They did no specific examination for sexual assault because they undressed
her in
the hospital and she was so badly injured that they would not have expected
anyone
to rape her.


Is this your interpretation of what he thought or is that what the
doctor said ? I heard him say no such thing in the interview with him,
he spoke in english.

Would you expect another human to put an arm between two cinder blocks
and whack away at it with a 2 x 4 ?

Again, do you think it is important to do a examination to determine if
a rape was committed ? Especially given that PFC Lynch said she was
unconscious.



They were lost. Her gun was jammed.

Interesting definition, I wonder if you hold yourself to that same
standard.

I think that is fits the definition of incompetence more than that of hero.

Sure there was negligence, but it lies with the signal core that left
their station, thinking that the entire convoy had past. Not with
members of the 508th.




--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Go Fig wrote:


I saw and heard the Iraqi Doctor and Nurse (as well as PFC Lynch). He
was quite clear, he made NO examination for sexual assault. Do you
think that is important?

They did no specific examination for sexual assault because they undressed
her in
the hospital and she was so badly injured that they would not have expected
anyone to rape her.

Is this your interpretation of what he thought or is that what the
doctor said ? I heard him say no such thing in the interview with him,
he spoke in english.

fhttp://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&c id=1068246608421

Dr. Mahdi Khafazji, the orthopedic surgeon who operated on the severely injured
private at Nasiriya's main hospital, said he found no signs she was sexually
assaulted.

"She was injured at about 7 in the morning," he said. "What kind of animal would
do it to a person suffering from multiple injuries?"
Dr. Jamal al-Saeidi, who first examined Lynch at another hospital, said when she
arrived, "Her clothes were not torn, buttons had not come off, her pants were
zipped up."

http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/Cont...=1068206464251

Dr. Mahdi Khafazji, an orthopedic surgeon at Nasiriyah's main hospital performed
surgery on Lynch to repair a fractured femur and said he found no signs that she
was raped or sodomized.

Khafazji, speaking at his private clinic in Nasiriyah, said he examined her
extensively and would have detected signs of sexual assault. He said the
examination turned up no trace of semen.

http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/Cont...=1068160209198

In the ABC interview, Lynch also said she was never slapped while in the Iraqi
hospital.

Mohammed al-Rehaief, the Iraqi lawyer credited with helping to save Lynch, has
said he went to U.S. Marines after watching her being hit.

"I don't remember that ever happening," Lynch said. "From the time I woke up in
the hospital, no one beat me, no one slapped me, no one, nothing ... I mean, I
actually had one nurse, that she would sing to me."


Would you expect another human to put an arm between two cinder blocks
and whack away at it with a 2 x 4 ?

There are a lot of things that I would not put past people in a combat situation,
but I have seen no reference to anything like that in this case.

Again, do you think it is important to do a examination to determine if
a rape was committed ? Especially given that PFC Lynch said she was
unconscious.

No I do not think that it would be important to do something like that in a case
like this. Her vehicle ran into another truck after being struck with an RPG, and
her injuries were apparently consistent with that. Moreover, the doctor said that
they unzipped her pants and that buttons were in place, which would be
inconsistent with a sexual assault.


Sure there was negligence, but it lies with the signal core that left
their station, thinking that the entire convoy had past. Not with
members of the 508th.

If she had done what they had originally done when the reports first came out she
would be something of a hero. As it turned out, she did no such thing. She did
not fire until she ran out of ammunition. She got out of the vehicle and
collapsed and there is a blank until she woke up in the hospital. She did not put
up with abuse in the hospital. It turned out that she was well treated by the
medical staff. It seems that the army was a little too hasty to find a female
hero to inspire patriotic zeal, and their pet project has humbly denied the
"facts" that we were used to make one out of her.

In article ,
Thomas F. Unke wrote:

"Markku Grönroos" writes:

I don't see anything heroic to be led by idiots whether Iraqi or
American.

Then let me explain you:

Many thousands of Iraqis regularly demonstrate against the
occupants.

They have grievances; power, water, health. All of which exceed pre-war
standards now.

Do you know of any other scientific polling on Iraqi attitudes besides
Gallop's ? You do know that there are about 23 million Iraqis.


They risk their lives, as the occupants use to shoot into
the crowds.

Which is exactly what those rules of engagement required when they were
shot at. Are you trying to say U.S. military shot specifically at
civilians ?


There are thousands of people arrested under terrible
circumstances.

Could you be more specific about the relative numbers and the terrible
circumstances?

Do you believe there are any Iraqis from the former regime that may face
charges from the new Iraqi government for crimes against the people of
Iraqi ?

Some of the old Saddam secret agents are now working
for the Americans.

A concerning situation that has to be monitored very closely.

It is indeed heroic to live under such circumstances and to fight for
freedom. Cowards would follow Bush and his thugs.

You have a very warped idea of freedom. They are fighting as paid thugs
by the butcher to return the butcher to power. The same butcher who is
responsible for killing more Muslims then any other person on earth.
The same butcher who had Germany as one of his top international trade
partners and creditor nations.... shameful.

jay
Thu, Nov 13, 2003





--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:53:10 -0800, Go Fig wrote:

In article ,
Dave Smith wrote:

Go Fig wrote:


I saw and heard the Iraqi Doctor and Nurse (as well as PFC Lynch). He
was quite clear, he made NO examination for sexual assault. Do you
think that is important?

They did no specific examination for sexual assault because they undressed
her in
the hospital and she was so badly injured that they would not have expected
anyone
to rape her.


Is this your interpretation of what he thought or is that what the
doctor said ? I heard him say no such thing in the interview with him,
he spoke in english.

What I heard went along the lines of "her boots and pants were well
and truly on and intact when she came into the hospital"

Now how would you feel if the doctors had started poking around her
privates without good reason?
---
DFM

In article ,
Dave Smith wrote:

Again, do you think it is important to do a examination to determine if
a rape was committed ? Especially given that PFC Lynch said she was
unconscious.

No I do not think that it would be important to do something like that in a
case
like this. Her vehicle ran into another truck after being struck with an RPG,
and
her injuries were apparently consistent with that. Moreover, the doctor said
that
they unzipped her pants and that buttons were in place, which would be
inconsistent with a sexual assault.

How much can an unconscious person resist to cause broken buttons, torn
clothes and defensive wounds ? What you have shown in your excellent
attributions is that no rape kit was taken, my only assumption.

I leave this subject with this; try and see the ABC interview, all
parties speak in english except the singing nurse. These interviews
were as a result of a specific paragraph in PFC Lynch's own book
concerning rape. There is a unnatural hesitation in her voice when
specifically asked about it; she, of course, has access to her official
U.S. medical report.



Sure there was negligence, but it lies with the signal core that left
their station, thinking that the entire convoy had past. Not with
members of the 508th.

If she had done what they had originally done when the reports first came out
she
would be something of a hero.

This report (s) is 1 report, and it was that article that was picked up
world wide. It names only some "official." This aspect was covered on
ABC TV this week, during the first ever interview with Lynch. There was
never an official release from the U.S. Military that touted her heroic
fighting.


As it turned out, she did no such thing. She
did
not fire until she ran out of ammunition.

She never fired a single shot, she stood her assigned station bravely as
her sergeant indicated on ABC TV.

She got out of the vehicle and
collapsed and there is a blank until she woke up in the hospital. She did not
put
up with abuse in the hospital. It turned out that she was well treated by the
medical staff.

Has there been ANY other reports to the contrary ?


It seems that the army was a little too hasty to find a
female
hero to inspire patriotic zeal, and their pet project has humbly denied the
"facts" that we were used to make one out of her.


PFC Lynch's only reservation/resentment is that her rescue was filmed.
That was indeed marketed, but it was quite a unique success.

jay
Thu, Nov 13, 2003


--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Go Fig wrote:
She never fired a single shot, she stood her assigned station bravely as
her sergeant indicated on ABC TV.

So I really don't get this whole thing (didn't see the movie and haven't
read that much about her story, so my bits'n'pieces understanding may be
off):

She is in a vehicle that gets hit. She is injured. She is taken to a
local hospital where she is treated well. The army then overreacts and
invades the hospital, who freely turn her over, and then she comes back home
to the USA.

Where's the legitimate drama here? What makes her more of a hero than anyone
else who gets hospitalized and then released? Why a movie if not for
domestic propaganda purposes?

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

Go Fig wrote:
They have grievances; power, water, health. All of which exceed pre-war
standards now.

Time magazine is pretty blandly reliable. They ran a "scorecard" in the
November 10 issue (US edition, p. 51). I'll reprint part of it he

North | Baghdad/central | South
+-----------------+---------------------------------------
Security | Slightly worse | Much worse | Worse
Goods | Much better | Much better | Much better
Jobs | Worse | Worse | Worse
Healthcare | Same | Same or worse | Same or worse
Education | Better | Better | Better
Electricity | Better | Worse | Better
Water | Same | Same or worse | Same or worse

Their report is far from the universally sunny one you provide. More
detailed too (and it comes with photos and quotes!).

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/