Tipping in USA/Canada

PTravel wrote:

"Qanset" wrote in message
u...
PTravel wrote:

"Qanset" wrote in message
u...
The wife and I are planning at trip to USA/Canada in the near future.
Is it true that the Yanks are really hung up on tipping, and that
FORGETTING to tip someone is courting disaster???

Like most tourists we will be traveling on a limited budget,this means
that anybody expecting free money from us will be advised to look
elsewhere.

With all due respect, I'd suggest you don't come.

Bit late for that, I was there 20 years ago. I saw a peurto rican
waitress get hostile because a British Visitor forgot to leave her a tip
on the table. Her conduct was absolutely disgraceful.

And what's your point? You are aware, however, that there are approximately
300 million people in the U.S. and, as far as I know, we're not represented
by a Puerto Rican waitress who you encountered 20 years ago.



When I travel
internationally, I buy a guidebook and learn what particular practices
and customs are observed in the locality I'm visiting. I don't make
judgments about them, and definitely do not arrive with a, "we're
superior because we don't do things this way," attitude. I also don't
insist that locals observe my customs.

I don't think you will enjoy international travel,

Wrong again. Have travelled to Twenty countries in the last 30 years

Then you should know better. Perhaps you're one of those unfortunates that
I run into from time to time, complaining how nothing is like it is at home.

I've posted these before, but I'll do it again. There are three rules I
follow when I travel internationally (and I've been traveling much longer
than you and to far more places):

1. Always remember you're a guest in someone else's country. Act like a
guest and respect the customs, preferences and practices of your hosts.

2. If in doubt, ask rather than assume -- I'd rather appear naive than rude
and offensive.

3. Err on the side of generosity -- it is better to pay too much than too
little, tip high rather than low, etc.

You've violated all three rules and, as a result, you've already offended a
number of Americans and you haven't even gotten here yet.


and I certainly don't
think you'll enjoy the U.S. Everyone will probably be better off if you
just stay home.


A colleague of mine who honeymooned in Hawaii was told by a tour bus
operator, that he EXPECTED gratuities for his efforts, because his job
was poorly paid. What more can I say.???

I think you've said quite enough. Incidentally, being sheparded around
on a tour bus is probably the worst way to visit a foreign county.

Yes and No. Tours offer a tourist with no local knowledge to see sights
with guidance of a professional tour guide. They tend to lack flexibility
sometimes, but can be good value for others.

Bus tours offer a tourist the opportunity to be completely isolated from the
culture that they're supposedly there to experience. If all you want to do
when you travel is "see sights" then, by all means, take a bus tour. That
is, certainly, why some people travel but you won't come away with any
understanding of the people or the cultural aesthetic of the country that
you've come to visit.



I'm going to cop a lot of flak on this subject, but never mind I have
and open mind on accepting advice on World Travel.

Advice given: change your attitude or stay home.

No way. My wife and I have strict moral guidelines for tipping. we will
NOT be bullied, coerced or manipulated in any way to part with our hard
earned money. From time to time we will offer tips at our own discretion
and we will be answereable to our own conscience and judgment if we
refuse.

I'm curious. Have you ever visited a strict Muslim country?

No thanks we have plenty of them here in Aus.

When you do,
does your wife dress modestly, or do your strict moral guidelines preclude
respecting someone else's beliefs and customs? Have you ever been to
France? Do you always say, "bonjour" to the shopkeeper when you enter a
shop, or do your strict moral guidelines preclude honoring one of the most
fundamental tenets of courtesy in a French society? Have you ever been to
China or Japan? When you go and someone offers you a business card, do your
strict moral guidelines require that you just stuff it in your pocket or do
you take it with both hands and read it politely, so as not to give offense?
Ever been to Italy? Do your strict moral guidelines allow you to wear
shorts and your wife to wear sleeveless dresses when you visit the great
cathedrals?

I'm very curious about your "strict moral guidelines." What is the source
of a morality that says being disrespectful and judgmental when you're a
guest in another culture is acceptable?

What the hell are you talking about ??? How does my moral guidelines about
tipping relate to respecting local customs.???
I think you taken this totally out of context. Over the last 18 years, my
wife and I have travelled to 20 countries
around Europe and Asia/Pacific. We research all material that explains the
do's and dont's when visiting each country.
We always carry Lonely Planet phrase books and tour guides plus any other
miscellaneous information to help
us to assimilate to the local culture and customs..Also on our last Trafalgar
tour of Europe, our Tour guide gave us tips about observing local culture.
So dont show your ignorance




I do understand that Americans depending on tips have been disadvantaged
by substandard work practices by their employers. Having been down that
road previously, I earnestly suggest they find a job where they DONT rely
on tips.

You don't understand anything about American workers who depend on tips. I
earnestly suggest that, rather than project your values and beliefs on the
rest of the world, you accept that other cultures have different values and
beliefs that, frequently, may conflict with your own.


You and the rest of
the world will be a lot happier.

Always been happy wherever I go O/S. As the for the rest of the world
they wont even know who I am.

Oh, but they will -- they will know you as the "rude [I'm going to guess
from your screen name] Australian." And for those foreigners who have had
limited contact with Australians, they will judge Australia and all
Australians by your actions. Like it or not, we are all de facto
ambassadors for our countries when we travel internationally. By
deliberately ignoring the customs and practices of the countries that you
visit, you are setting a very poor example for your own and one by which
your fellow countrymen will be judged.

"Martin D. Pay" wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:52:37 -0800, "PTravel"
mangled uncounted electrons thus:


"Qanset" wrote in message
. au...
snip reasoned and intelligent reply

OP is a troll. And an Australian. It's not worth feeding him.

Bit late for that.



Martin D. Pay
Not always comfortable with the 'tipping' part of traveling in
the US. But it's the custom and culture of the country so I do as
the locals do. It's only polite...

DaveM wrote:

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:02:51 +1100, Qanset wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 09:52:37 -0800, "PTravel"
wrote:

Oh, but they will -- they will know you as the "rude [I'm going to guess
from your screen name] Australian." And for those foreigners who have had
limited contact with Australians, they will judge Australia and all
Australians by your actions. Like it or not, we are all de facto
ambassadors for our countries when we travel internationally. By
deliberately ignoring the customs and practices of the countries that you
visit, you are setting a very poor example for your own and one by which
your fellow countrymen will be judged.

Agreed, but being a bad tipper is NOT offensive behaviour.

Bzzzzzt! Sorry, but you don't get to decide that - if your behaviour
offends, it's offensive*.


So what happens if I lose my cash and cant pay.??????
If I was a waiter and a customer has lost his/her wallet, asking a tip
from him/her would be the last thing on my mind.


DaveM

*By definition:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/offensive

PTravel wrote:

"Stephen Farrow" wrote in message
...
PTravel wrote:

I've posted these before, but I'll do it again. There are three rules I
follow when I travel internationally (and I've been traveling much longer
than you and to far more places):

1. Always remember you're a guest in someone else's country. Act like a
guest and respect the customs, preferences and practices of your hosts.

2. If in doubt, ask rather than assume -- I'd rather appear naive than
rude and offensive.

3. Err on the side of generosity -- it is better to pay too much than
too little, tip high rather than low, etc.

You've violated all three rules and, as a result, you've already offended
a number of Americans and you haven't even gotten here yet.

I basically follow those three rules when I travel - but I will say that,
as an Englishman who's travelled extensively in the USA and who has spent
much of the last decade living in Canada, the one circumstance in which I
*won't* tip is if some waiter hears my English accent and takes it upon
himself to explain to me that in North America it's customary to leave a
tip.

Nor should you tip under such a circumstance. When I travel
internationally, I never mind when someone offers advice out of altruism.
When it's solely proferred for their own benefit, however, it's another
story altogether. In fact, now that I think about it, I feel the same way
when it happens at home as well.

I absolutely understand that employees in jobs where tipping is involved
are poorly paid and depend on tips for part of their livelihood, I've
spent long enough in North America that I don't find tipping remotely
embarrassing, and in a restaurant in North America I fully expect to tip
15-20% - but at the same time, tipping is still, theoretically,
discretionary, and I don't appreciate being patronised.

It's not only patronizing, it's rude as it assumes that the foreign visitor
hasn't made the least effort to learn about the culture.

You cant expect the foreign visitor to know everything, even if they make
honest mistakes.




--

Stephen

What is this, an intervention? Shouldn't all my demon friends be here?

Stephen Farrow wrote:

PTravel wrote:

"Stephen Farrow" wrote in message
...
PTravel wrote:

I've posted these before, but I'll do it again. There are three
rules I follow when I travel internationally (and I've been traveling
much longer than you and to far more places):

1. Always remember you're a guest in someone else's country. Act
like a guest and respect the customs, preferences and practices of
your hosts.

2. If in doubt, ask rather than assume -- I'd rather appear naive
than rude and offensive.

3. Err on the side of generosity -- it is better to pay too much
than too little, tip high rather than low, etc.

You've violated all three rules and, as a result, you've already
offended a number of Americans and you haven't even gotten here yet.

I basically follow those three rules when I travel - but I will say
that, as an Englishman who's travelled extensively in the USA and who
has spent much of the last decade living in Canada, the one
circumstance in which I *won't* tip is if some waiter hears my English
accent and takes it upon himself to explain to me that in North
America it's customary to leave a tip.

Nor should you tip under such a circumstance. When I travel
internationally, I never mind when someone offers advice out of
altruism. When it's solely proferred for their own benefit, however,
it's another story altogether. In fact, now that I think about it, I
feel the same way when it happens at home as well.

I absolutely understand that employees in jobs where tipping is
involved are poorly paid and depend on tips for part of their
livelihood, I've spent long enough in North America that I don't find
tipping remotely embarrassing, and in a restaurant in North America I
fully expect to tip 15-20% - but at the same time, tipping is still,
theoretically, discretionary, and I don't appreciate being patronised.

It's not only patronizing, it's rude as it assumes that the foreign
visitor hasn't made the least effort to learn about the culture.

And in those circumstances - this has happened to me a few times over
the years - not only do I not tip, I usually seek out the manager and
tell him/her *exactly* why I'm not leaving a tip.

You have the right to tip and NOT to tip at your own discretion



--

Stephen

I know all the games... pin the thing on the thing... pass the thing...

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:47:32 +0000, DaveM
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 23:10:20 -0900, (Dennis P.
Harris) wrote:

many of the colonies were settled by folks who left england
because of religious persecution --- the new england colonies
(puritans),

However much the Puritans were persecuted, it wasn't enough. Cromwell's
reign was not a pleasant one.

Nor was the reign of the Puritans in the New World.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:26:37 +1100, Qanset
wrote:



Craig Welch wrote:

(Dennis P. Harris) said:

i can only speak to my experience in britain and france. i have
been told that italians still tip. even if they aren't
compulsory, i have always found that a little extra to the staff
always ensured special treatment, except in NZ & oz, where folks
would be insulted if you offered a gratuity. since my kiwi
friends had warned me about this, i never made that mistake.

Heh. Some joke they chose to lump you with.

In Australia and NZ, tipping is certainly not mandatory; but no
waiter is ever 'insulted' by a tip. He is, naturally, grateful.

Why would he be insulted by a tip??? As if he/she would expect to be
tipped anyway.

On the other hand, ten years ago in Tallinn a waiter was quite
offended when I offered a tip.

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:34:50 +1100, Qanset
wrote:



mrtravel wrote:

Craig Welch wrote:

Qanset said:

Bit late for that, I was there 20 years ago. I saw a peurto rican
waitress get hostile because a British Visitor forgot to leave her a tip
on the table. Her conduct was absolutely disgraceful.

How did you know her nationality? Did she have a badge?

People of all nationalities exhibit bad behavior. Why did you single out
her as a "peurto rican"?

She was'nt singled out because of her nationality. Her ethnic background
was mentioned to me by a fellow diner.

Thereby begging the question: How did the fellow diner know?

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN ) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:51:13 +1100, Qanset wrote:


So what happens if I lose my cash and cant pay.??????

You get to play the love interest to your 280 lb cellmate's "Romeo".

DaveM

Qanset wrote:

Stephen Farrow wrote:

PTravel wrote:
"Stephen Farrow" wrote in message
...
PTravel wrote:

I've posted these before, but I'll do it again. There are three
rules I follow when I travel internationally (and I've been traveling
much longer than you and to far more places):

1. Always remember you're a guest in someone else's country. Act
like a guest and respect the customs, preferences and practices of
your hosts.

2. If in doubt, ask rather than assume -- I'd rather appear naive
than rude and offensive.

3. Err on the side of generosity -- it is better to pay too much
than too little, tip high rather than low, etc.

You've violated all three rules and, as a result, you've already
offended a number of Americans and you haven't even gotten here yet.
I basically follow those three rules when I travel - but I will say
that, as an Englishman who's travelled extensively in the USA and who
has spent much of the last decade living in Canada, the one
circumstance in which I *won't* tip is if some waiter hears my English
accent and takes it upon himself to explain to me that in North
America it's customary to leave a tip.
Nor should you tip under such a circumstance. When I travel
internationally, I never mind when someone offers advice out of
altruism. When it's solely proferred for their own benefit, however,
it's another story altogether. In fact, now that I think about it, I
feel the same way when it happens at home as well.

I absolutely understand that employees in jobs where tipping is
involved are poorly paid and depend on tips for part of their
livelihood, I've spent long enough in North America that I don't find
tipping remotely embarrassing, and in a restaurant in North America I
fully expect to tip 15-20% - but at the same time, tipping is still,
theoretically, discretionary, and I don't appreciate being patronised.
It's not only patronizing, it's rude as it assumes that the foreign
visitor hasn't made the least effort to learn about the culture.
And in those circumstances - this has happened to me a few times over
the years - not only do I not tip, I usually seek out the manager and
tell him/her *exactly* why I'm not leaving a tip.

You have the right to tip and NOT to tip at your own discretion

No ****.

In these particular cases, however, I want the reason why I'm not
leaving a tip - basic rudeness on the part of a staff member - to be
known to the management. I already said elsewhere that in North America
I generally automatically tip 15-20%. That's the local custom, so that's
what I do. I don't tip 15-20% when I'm back home in England, because
that's *not* the custom here.

--

Stephen

It's mauve and dangerous!