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Chirac warns of 'African flood'



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 15th, 2006, 10:24 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa,rec.travel.misc
Hooverphonic
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Posts: 133
Default Chirac warns of 'African flood'


Jim Ley wrote:
On 15 Jul 2006 12:32:47 -0700, "R. Lander"
wrote:

Jim Ley wrote:
Yet they have a fraction of the number of people other much smaller
areas are able to support, there is not an overpopulation problem in
Africa.


A "fraction" of what number? Africa is pushing the 900 million mark and
there's no evidence to support your claim. You're probably referring to
Japan and densely populated parts of Europe. They import most of their
food because they've crowded out too much land to grow it.


Erm, you know Europe is more than self sufficient in food, it pays
farmers an awful lot of money to grow less than they could. AIUI
Japan is also self sufficient in food, but I certainly don't know for
certain.

which food, bluefin tuna, whales ?

Farming attempts in the Sahel keep degrading the soil and
logic says there are just too many people (logic would prevail if
another species was under discussion here).


No, there are wrong technologies, lack of a rule of law, lack of a
functioning market, lack of education etc. etc. meaning that people
cannot or don't know enough to use techniques which are practical in
the environment. Africa as a whole would have no problem being self
sufficient in food (and other raw materials, we know it's got more
than enough of) but places with very, very good climates for farming
the high yield crops available today - such as Zimbabwe are complete
basket cases due to problems that have nothing to do with population
growth.

and you are saying that more people will help ?

Africa may never achieve
first-world status, and even if it did, huge energy supplies would be
needed to sustain agriculture, since the modern world grows food with
oil.


except of course, there's no reason to... indeed it's already
practical to grow oil in a lot of the world, so it's obviously still
profitable to farm...

Regardless, what's the point of constant crowding under any
scenario?


There's no point, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the point
at hand, the reason for large families is poverty,

so if there is a decline in family size, there will be a decline in
poverty !

it's not catholicism, or some nutters I've never seen who want more people
around.

indeed 'nutters' want more people around

"Overpopulation myth" propagandists expect Africa to forever borrow
resources when it's never really helped them. Food aid has made Africa
the world's messiest welfare state.


Absolutely, which is why I've not once advocated food aid, I've
advocated help to get a rule of law, but most importantly I want rich
*******s in the first world to start caring about other people and
deal with the massive subsidies given to a tiny minority of people,
and the tarrifs designed to keep other people poor.

I agree stop food aid and stop subsidies

  #2  
Old July 15th, 2006, 11:05 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa,rec.travel.misc
Jim Ley
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Posts: 862
Default Chirac warns of 'African flood'

On 15 Jul 2006 14:24:43 -0700, "Hooverphonic"
wrote:
and you are saying that more people will help ?


Yes, large families are needed because of high mortality rates,
without those large families the communities would not be sustainable,
you may want them to die out, but I don't think that is a good idea.

There's no point, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the point
at hand, the reason for large families is poverty,

so if there is a decline in family size, there will be a decline in
poverty !


Yes, because unfortunately due to preventable diseases and high
mortality, young children and young adults are very productive members
of the community, remove them, and you remove the level of
productivity for the community.

You could see for youself in a rich country if you removed a lot of
their productive members of the community, the level of poverty
wouldn't go down, it would rise drastically.

Absolutely, which is why I've not once advocated food aid, I've
advocated help to get a rule of law, but most importantly I want rich
*******s in the first world to start caring about other people and
deal with the massive subsidies given to a tiny minority of people,
and the tarrifs designed to keep other people poor.


I agree stop food aid and stop subsidies


Tarrifs are even more important than the subsidy.

Jim.
  #3  
Old July 15th, 2006, 11:42 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa,rec.travel.misc
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 5,830
Default Chirac warns of 'African flood'

Jim Ley writes:

Yes, large families are needed because of high mortality rates,
without those large families the communities would not be sustainable,
you may want them to die out, but I don't think that is a good idea.


If that were true, the population would not be growing. The fact that
it is growing demonstrates that mortality is not high enough to negate
the rate of reproduction. In other words, people are having far more
children than they should, even with high mortality.

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  #4  
Old July 16th, 2006, 09:48 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa,rec.travel.misc
Jim Ley
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Posts: 862
Default Chirac warns of 'African flood'

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 00:42:29 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Jim Ley writes:

Yes, large families are needed because of high mortality rates,
without those large families the communities would not be sustainable,
you may want them to die out, but I don't think that is a good idea.


If that were true, the population would not be growing.


no it wouldn't, you're confusing the effects required for individual
family groups with the effect that has over the entire population,
you're also ignoring that some poverty reduction is happening in some
countries.

In other words, people are having far more
children than they should, even with high mortality.


Yes, we've already established you don't believe in freedom, and that
African's should be controlled to meet your idea of what is
apparopriate, it doesn't hold you in a nice light before, and it
doesn't now.

Jim.
  #5  
Old July 16th, 2006, 11:24 AM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa,rec.travel.misc
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 5,830
Default Chirac warns of 'African flood'

Jim Ley writes:

Yes, we've already established you don't believe in freedom ...


I believe very much in freedom, but reproducing is not a freedom, it's
a privilege ... because it involves a helpless third party whose
rights must be protected.

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  #6  
Old July 16th, 2006, 07:17 PM posted to rec.travel.europe,rec.travel.africa,rec.travel.misc
R. Lander
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Posts: 13
Default Chirac warns of 'African flood'

Hooverphonic wrote:

it's not catholicism, or some nutters I've never seen who want more people
around.

indeed 'nutters' want more people around


Fox News' John Gibson is just one example of such nuttiness. He wants
whites to have more babies to compete with the Hispanic flood. A stupid
birth-race in lieu of a stupid arms-race. Little does he care that
everyone loses in the end.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605...fset=60&show=1

Even when birthrates decline (i.e. Europe & Japan), instead of
breathing an ecological sigh of relief, growthaholics will clamor for
more. It proves that "economic growth" and population growth are
tag-along twins. We can't grow the GNP and create millions of (global)
jobs per year with a stable population (there'd be no need to!) Most
economists still see consumption as a casual externality. Production is
all they care about.

R. Lander

 




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