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#11
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said: The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called "Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous) province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige / Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group). Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip. The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate through the city. Got lost. Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions. "Dove autostrada nord?" And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc.. Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there. Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist identification! My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but, would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German? Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies, but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't understand parts of a time or two, however. -- Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad |
#12
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On 2012-12-29 18:39:19 -0600, Erilar said:
Dan Stephenson wrote: On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said: The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called "Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous) province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige / Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group). Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip. The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate through the city. Got lost. Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions. "Dove autostrada nord?" And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc.. Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there. Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist identification! My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but, would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German? Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies, but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't understand parts of a time or two, however. Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? -- Dan Stephenson http://stepheda.com Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too) |
#13
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
Dan Stephenson wrote:
On 2012-12-29 18:39:19 -0600, Erilar said: Dan Stephenson wrote: On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said: The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called "Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous) province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige / Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group). Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip. The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate through the city. Got lost. Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions. "Dove autostrada nord?" And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc.. Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there. Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist identification! My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but, would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German? Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies, but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't understand parts of a time or two, however. Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? Everywhere on TV 8-). Also everywhere in higher education. Local dialects in the middle of the country are closer to it. -- Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad |
#14
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On 12/31/2012 03:56 PM, Erilar wrote:
Dan Stephenson wrote: On 2012-12-29 18:39:19 -0600, Erilar said: Dan Stephenson wrote: On 2012-10-09 07:08:58 -0500, Giovanni Drogo said: The (autonomous) province of Trento correspond to the part called "Trentino" and is exclusively of italian language. The (autonomous) province of Bolzano/Bozen correspond to the part called "Alto Adige / Südtirol" and is bilingual (actually trilingual, citizens have to declare whether they belong to the German, Italian, or Ladin group). Funny story. I was lost in Merano. This was back in 2009, the big trip. The motorway from the south somehow enters Merano, but there was no way to take the northerly road out, that I could see. I had to navigate through the city. Got lost. Once I drove around the same center three times, I asked for directions. "Dove autostrada nord?" And I get what I expected, a lightspeed response in Italian. Sigh. The woman recognized I didn't follow, and perhaps because I was in a German car, she asked, in German, if I spoke German! A little, I replied. So through some pidgeon German and some pantomime (closing and opening hands with fingers outstretched with the word "amphel"), I know how many meters to travel until I went left, then after the third "amphel", drive right, etc.. Finally made it out. SO glad they spoke German up there. Later in my trip, I stopped for fuel in this part of Italy and the clerk without pause starting talking to me in German. I escape a tourist identification! My German is the best non-English European language, and I've thought to take a leave some day to immerse in a German language, maybe through some classes at a local university. I always assumed it would be in Germany or perhaps Austria. Maybe it could be south Tirol. Thoughts? I understand the dialects can awkward to carry from place to place, but, would it be any different in say, Berlin, if I spoke south Tirolish German versus Bavarian, Stuttgartish, or Wiener German? Local German dialects can be mutually unintelligible, but people in the German-speaking areas all understand Hochdeutsch. I've never had trouble being understood in any I've been in, and I'm often well off the beaten path. There have been times when I've had difficulty understanding replies, but because I speak the educated language fluently, i can allow for some varience, and I can follow most people's attempts to do the same, as well as a heavy infusion of some dialects. I've had conversations I didn't understand parts of a time or two, however. Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? Everywhere on TV 8-). Also everywhere in higher education. Local dialects in the middle of the country are closer to it. Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch (Low German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard German is called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German is the natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower Saxony, there are local accents, and some people speak a variety of Plattdeutsch, which nobody else understands. http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattd%C3%BC%C3%BCtsch More or less by definition, all educated Germans can speak Standard German, but they may well speak with their regional accent, or they may also switch to a local dialect when they want to. Some dialects are more or less mutually incomprehensible. I live in the Rhineland, and the local accent and dialect sound totally normal for me, for someone from Bavaria or Stuttgart they might well sound very strange. Conversely, I have severe problems understanding any one from Bavaria or Stuttgart when he drops into his local dialect. |
#15
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
Tom P:
Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? Yes. Generally spoken in the area around and between Osnabrück and Hannover. Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch (Low German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard German is called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German is the natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower Saxony, there are local accents, and some people speak a variety of Plattdeutsch, which nobody else understands. Absolutely correct. In my region, in the west of Lower Saxony, a dialect consisting of Saxonian and Dutch phrases, spoken with a weird accent, is common. Among each other, locals all usually speak this dialect, which is hard for me to understand (although I'm practically fluent in German and Dutch is my native tongue). When I'm joining a group of neighbours, most of them politely switch to Hochdeutsch, so I can converse along with them. Some dialects are more or less mutually incomprehensible. Correct. In five weeks from now, the carnival speakers will demonstrate this on TV again. Even relatively close neighbours (geographically spoken) from Mainz and Cologne will have trouble to fully understand each others' dialect. |
#16
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On Friday, January 4, 2013 6:41:15 AM UTC, Erick T. Barkhuis wrote:
Tom P: Is there a place or places in Germany where Hochdeutsch is the local dialect? Yes. Generally spoken in the area around and between Osnabrück and Hannover. Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch (Low German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard German is called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German is the natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower Saxony, there are local accents, and some people speak a variety of Plattdeutsch, which nobody else understands. Absolutely correct. In my region, in the west of Lower Saxony, a dialect consisting of Saxonian and Dutch phrases, spoken with a weird accent, is common. Among each other, locals all usually speak this dialect, which is hard for me to understand (although I'm practically fluent in German and Dutch is my native tongue). When I'm joining a group of neighbours, most of them politely switch to Hochdeutsch, so I can converse along with them. Some dialects are more or less mutually incomprehensible. Correct. In five weeks from now, the carnival speakers will demonstrate this on TV again. Even relatively close neighbours (geographically spoken) from Mainz and Cologne will have trouble to fully understand each others' dialect. This is all hardly surprising. Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect words. I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland) accent in a Pennsylvania business meeting! |
#17
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On 1/4/2013 4:54 AM, Surreyman wrote:
This is all hardly surprising. Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect words. I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland) accent in a Pennsylvania business meeting! And I've had to translate between Lowland Scots and Texans. Both sides believed themselves to be speaking English. |
#18
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On 2013-01-03 16:50:17 -0600, Tom P said:
Hochdeutsch technically refers to the distinction to Plattdeutsch (Low German) and other dialects, but generally it is what Standard German is called, and I think that is what Dan means. Standard German is the natural language everywhere and nowhere - even in Lower Saxony, there are local accents, and some people speak a variety of Plattdeutsch, which nobody else understands. http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattd%C3%BC%C3%BCtsch More or less by definition, all educated Germans can speak Standard German, but they may well speak with their regional accent, or they may also switch to a local dialect when they want to. Some dialects are more or less mutually incomprehensible. I live in the Rhineland, and the local accent and dialect sound totally normal for me, for someone from Bavaria or Stuttgart they might well sound very strange. Conversely, I have severe problems understanding any one from Bavaria or Stuttgart when he drops into his local dialect. In this case, if my goal is immersion, the language aspect is less important that what I am doing where I am located. I can just be a Bavarian speaker, or whatever. I need to focus on what, and where. What are the good engineering school in the German-speaking Alps? Bavaria, Austria, South Tirol, Swizteraland -- all good. rsvp, please post, -- Dan Stephenson http://stepheda.com Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too) |
#19
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
On 2013-01-04 03:54:08 -0600, Surreyman said:
This is all hardly surprising. Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect words. I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland) accent in a Pennsylvania business meeting! This reminds me, the most difficult time I had in Europe understanding English, was in England. :-) It is amazing; in America there are local accents, but except in a few narrow areas, there are no dialects in the meaning you use. Yet in Europe, everything is so segmented! I don't just mean between nations, but like the above, where small distances within a country can make a big difference. I guess it goes back to historical times where sub-principalities were previously independent. Plus, people do not seem to move around as much in Europe as, say, America. For the same reason I suppose. -- Dan Stephenson http://stepheda.com Travel pages for Europe and the U.S.A. (and New Zealand too) |
#20
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German language in south Tirol Back on topic - Lake Garda
"S Viemeister" wrote in message ... On 1/4/2013 4:54 AM, Surreyman wrote: This is all hardly surprising. Even accents within the UK can cause problems, even with no dialect words. I (from Surrey) once had to 'translate' my MD's Paisley (Scotland) accent in a Pennsylvania business meeting! And I've had to translate between Lowland Scots and Texans. Both sides believed themselves to be speaking English. The denizens of Birmingham also believe that English is their native language. -- JohnT |
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