Q's Yangtze Riv Cruise + China land touring in June/July

Greetings,

If you've been to China and can offer info/tips, I'd appreciate it. (Mike
Cordelli, I know you went last summer, and I've read all of your posts +
viewed your gorgeous pix. Hope you'll have something to say!)

1 - Recommend a Tour Company - Trying to identify organized group or custom
land tour operators who use the East Queen/King or any of the Victoria ships
vs. going with the all-inclusive land + cruise program offered by Viking.
I've done quite a bit of research, but desire firstand feedback from fellow
travelers about recommended companies bearing in mind those factors I cannot
tell from looking at the printed itinerary, e.g., quality of guides; amount
of time devoted to attractions (would rather see 2-3 sites in depth than 6
on the run); number of shopping stops (our preferred number being zero); and
group size & demographics (we will be a group of 7+ ranging in age from 12
to a very young & fit 71 and, if we don't do a custom trip, prefer a tour of
a small to medium-sized group of travelers of all ages).

2 - What about Unescorted Tours? - We normally travel independently, but
need the logistical support on this one, e.g., prearranged domestic air &
ground transport/transfers/accommodations/luggage handling. Consequently, it
might be ideal to find an operator that provides an unescorted or
"independent tour" without the daily tour agenda (we'd retain our own
private guides when necessary) and meals. But, I haven't seen many of those
types of tours for China. Ideas?

3 - June/July Weather - We have no choice but to take this trip in
June/July. I see it will be hot, humid and, oh boy, rainy season. Can anyone
elaborate on the rain--all day every day or brief tropical bursts or what?
Of course, we're going to be all over the map, from Beijing to Hong Kong and
the usual tourist spots in between, so I imagine the answer is "it varies,"
but it'd be helpful for me to have some insight. And any thoughts on
suffering the heat? I am thinking there is no way we can handle a long walk
on the wall....

4 - The River Cruise: Upstream or Downstream? - Natch, the cruise companies
all say "it doesn't matter." Are there pros & cons? All I can see is that
upstream adds a day to your itin., which might be nice for added
rest/relaxation; on the other hand, if it's a pretty slooooow experience, we
might get a little stir crazy?

Thanks for any and all help.

Diana Ball
near Houston, TX

It has been a couple of years but I went with a group of people . The
company was "pacific bestours". They did a wonderful job and I think it was
about 3 weeks. They used the victoria cruises. In my opinion a tour group
is the only way to visit china at this time. although it is opening up,
there are still many places one should not venture ( IMHO) The organized
tour was a combination of boats buses, & planes and gave a wonderful look at
this fascinating country. I think in china it is still advisible to used
the company who does the package.

Pacific Bestours stayed in china's better hotels and started each day with
an american buffet breakfast. The majority of the meals were supplied and
good as they only used governments approved restaurants.

I sure it will be hot as I went in spring and it was moderately warm, and I
think that's another good reason to hook up with a tour company. I think any
travel agent has access to pacific bestours.



"D Ball" wrote in message
...
Greetings,

If you've been to China and can offer info/tips, I'd appreciate it. (Mike
Cordelli, I know you went last summer, and I've read all of your posts +
viewed your gorgeous pix. Hope you'll have something to say!)

1 - Recommend a Tour Company - Trying to identify organized group or
custom land tour operators who use the East Queen/King or any of the
Victoria ships vs. going with the all-inclusive land + cruise program
offered by Viking. I've done quite a bit of research, but desire firstand
feedback from fellow travelers about recommended companies bearing in mind
those factors I cannot tell from looking at the printed itinerary, e.g.,
quality of guides; amount of time devoted to attractions (would rather see
2-3 sites in depth than 6 on the run); number of shopping stops (our
preferred number being zero); and group size & demographics (we will be a
group of 7+ ranging in age from 12 to a very young & fit 71 and, if we
don't do a custom trip, prefer a tour of a small to medium-sized group of
travelers of all ages).

2 - What about Unescorted Tours? - We normally travel independently, but
need the logistical support on this one, e.g., prearranged domestic air &
ground transport/transfers/accommodations/luggage handling. Consequently,
it might be ideal to find an operator that provides an unescorted or
"independent tour" without the daily tour agenda (we'd retain our own
private guides when necessary) and meals. But, I haven't seen many of
those types of tours for China. Ideas?

3 - June/July Weather - We have no choice but to take this trip in
June/July. I see it will be hot, humid and, oh boy, rainy season. Can
anyone elaborate on the rain--all day every day or brief tropical bursts
or what? Of course, we're going to be all over the map, from Beijing to
Hong Kong and the usual tourist spots in between, so I imagine the answer
is "it varies," but it'd be helpful for me to have some insight. And any
thoughts on suffering the heat? I am thinking there is no way we can
handle a long walk on the wall....

4 - The River Cruise: Upstream or Downstream? - Natch, the cruise
companies all say "it doesn't matter." Are there pros & cons? All I can
see is that upstream adds a day to your itin., which might be nice for
added rest/relaxation; on the other hand, if it's a pretty slooooow
experience, we might get a little stir crazy?

Thanks for any and all help.

Diana Ball
near Houston, TX

D Ball wrote:

1 - Recommend a Tour Company - Trying to identify organized group or
custom
land tour operators who use the East Queen/King or any of the Victoria ships
vs. going with the all-inclusive land + cruise program offered by Viking.

We visited China with a tour offered by our alumni association. They, in
turn, used the services of Gohagan Tours. I don't believe this company
offers tours to the general public. If you can travel with Gohagan
through your alumni association, you can expect a superior experience:
excellent choice of hotels, good food, local and national guides in
addition to your Gohagan rep, and an interesting itinerary without too
many shopping stops. (By the time I read farther down your post, I saw
that you will be traveling with a mix of ages, including children. The
alumni group would not be a good option for you.)

In the commercial category, I can recommend Pacific Delights in the mid-
price range and Abercrombie and Kent in the high price range.

I'm sure there are families touring China, but my memory tells me that
the majority of tourists were adults. This will make your search for an
appropriate pre-existing tour package more challenging.


I've done quite a bit of research, but desire firstand feedback from fellow
travelers about recommended companies bearing in mind those factors I cannot
tell from looking at the printed itinerary, e.g., quality of guides

I recommend you specifically ask if the guides from the Chinese tourist
agency and if your group would have both a national guide who would
accompany you throughout the entire trip in addition to local guides who
are knowledgeable for each destination. (A representative from the tour
company might be useful.) If you get specialists rather than relying
exclusively on the generalist -- or worse, relying on the
company-provided guide -- you probably won't have the highest quality
guide. By that I mean the guide will give a canned and probably
superficial explanation.

2 - What about Unescorted Tours? - We normally travel independently, but
need the logistical support on this one, e.g., prearranged domestic air &
ground transport/transfers/accommodations/luggage handling. Consequently, it
might be ideal to find an operator that provides an unescorted or
"independent tour" without the daily tour agenda (we'd retain our own
private guides when necessary) and meals. But, I haven't seen many of those
types of tours for China. Ideas?

The lack of English in China makes wholly independent touring less
typical. However, with varying degrees of effort, you can create the
type of tour you're used to. The most expensive way to do this is to
contact Abercrombie and Kent who will design a personalized tour for our
group. Go to their web site and click on the "Tailor Made link." If
you're willing to be heavily involved, I believe the Chinese Tourist
Agency will work with individuals and you can put together a personal
tour that meets your specifications.

As for your reluctance to include shopping stops, I can only say that we
shared your reluctance and viewed our stops at a rug factory, cloisone
factory, and silk factory with skepticism in advance. Happily, we found
the tours to be sufficiently interesting that we did not regret the time
spent there. Incidentally, we traveled to China with no expectation of
doing much shopping. This was the common perception of the people in our
group. We -- along with everyone else -- ended up buying so much that
people were shipping things home along with way and buying extra
suitcases. We now sleep nightly under our silk comforters and a tiny
silk rug is now hanging on our wall and that's only the big stuff.

4 - The River Cruise: Upstream or Downstream? - Natch, the cruise companies
all say "it doesn't matter." Are there pros & cons? All I can see is that
upstream adds a day to your itin., which might be nice for added
rest/relaxation; on the other hand, if it's a pretty slooooow experience, we
might get a little stir crazy?

It's not clear how much upstream or downstream matters any more with the
partial completion of the dam. The current may already be sufficiently
slowed that the two trips are almost identical. We traveled upstream --
pre-dam -- and would have preferred to have cut one day off our five-day
trip for the same distance downstream. Is *is* a slow experience! There
are things to do while on the boat and there are excursions just as
there would be on any regular cruise. Nevertheless, I would minimize my
time on the river and spend no more than three-four days on the rive
because it was the least interesting and least comfortable part of the trip.

Karen Selwyn

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to offer your personal recommendation of
Pacific Bestours. This is exactly the kind of idea I was seeking. I am going
to spend some time on their website.

Diana

"Steve" wrote in message
news:4xXPd.68835$tU6.50962@edtnps91...
It has been a couple of years but I went with a group of people . The
company was "pacific bestours". They did a wonderful job and I think it
was

Karen,

As always, I appreciate your experienced advice.

I had already considered alumni & similar touring groups, but they are
wise--none are taking folks to China in the summer! Indeed, I have been
forced to eliminate several good contendors because of the off-season timing
of our trip. Hence, one reason I asked for input from folks like Steve and
you.

Thank you so much for your explanatory comments about both guides and
shopping. I will be able to ask better questions based on your remarks. I am
laughing about the shopping. I am not a shopper, either...so I guess I
should be prepared to be surprised?! My husband, OTOH, loves to shop, so I
really need to be prepared to deal with is the "How to Get it Home" issue!

I, too, had heard positive things about Pacific Delights, so with your
second, I will definitely take a look at them. We used A&K on the Nile last
year and were spoiled by the quality of their guides, as well as everything
they did. But that was just the 4 of us for a relatively short leg of a long
trip. With China, I'm looking at 7+ for up to 3 weeks...so unless I can
drive a very hard bargain, I don't think we'll get to go the A&K way. (Just
FYI, speaking of high end travel suppliers, R. Crusoe & Son are ex-A&K'ers
who have put together some incredible tours to China and elsewhere. I always
get ideas from looking at the itineraries & program offerings of the luxury
suppliers.)

The kid factor is mostly a non-issue. Young teens aren't much different than
adults when it comes to travel. Ours have traveled a bit & are pretty good
road warriors. Their presence simply motivates me to plug in some free time
so they can both participate in all of the programmed activities & take a
couple of hours here and there to do "normal things" like sleep late, rent
bikes, hang by the hotel pool, check out the local shopping, etc.
Unscheduled down time is not necessarily a bad thing for adult travelers,
either!

Question: Could you be more specific in stating why the river trip was "the
least interesting and least comfortable part of the trip?" I was definitely
looking at it as a way to provide some much-needed R 'n R, but....

Thanks, again, Karen.

Diana

The tour company - I'm really not sure that there are that many differences,
some all use the same people over on the china side, they just farm this
part to this tour guide, the river cruise to Victoria, etc. We were with
Pacific Delight (loved them) and there were people from Uniworld along with
us part of the trip (different busses) and they loved it, etc.

Handling it all as one thing makes it easier for you, one point to call if
there is an issue, etc.

Our guides were all excellent, but again, they were not employees of the
tour company, but locally hired people. Business was very slow, they were
thrilled to have us, can't say it would be the same if they had groups every
day (one guide told us it would be three weeks before she had another group)

On our trip, the shopping stops were actually quite good, there were two
real ones, and one at probably the driver's uncle's or something. The silk
factory tour was wonderful, the other real one was good. The driver's uncle
was a guy selling pearls, took like ten minutes. I looked at it this way,
selling to the rest of the world is such a major part of their economy, that
it made sense to see the factories

Ask your operator what their policy is. Our group would have been two, the
wife and I for an extra $100, which would have been great. At the last
minute they got four or five others, so the group was still a very decent
six or seven. Because there were not lots of people the groups were
smaller, but if you check with the operator they will tell you their policy.

Unescorted Tours - I would love to do that, but there is still lots of
handholding unless you speak the language. English was not all that popular
of a language for many. Again, it's probably with the same guides, I think
each area only has a few "official" guides available.

The heat - The spicy food helps way more then you would expect, and lots of
liquids, which are available everywhere. Bottled water (the only way to
drink water) is incredibly inexpensive and something you can bargain, and
ice cream bars are everywhere.

The busses are also air conditioned, about the only thing that is are the
tour busses. Hotels, on the other hand was a different story, some
considered Air Conditioning to be what we could call a fan.

We could have spent weeks on the river, I don't think you would so stir
crazy, it's up to you how active or how much you want to just sit back and
watch the world go by.



"D Ball" wrote in message
...
Greetings,

If you've been to China and can offer info/tips, I'd appreciate it. (Mike
Cordelli, I know you went last summer, and I've read all of your posts +
viewed your gorgeous pix. Hope you'll have something to say!)

1 - Recommend a Tour Company - Trying to identify organized group or
custom
land tour operators who use the East Queen/King or any of the Victoria
ships
vs. going with the all-inclusive land + cruise program offered by Viking.
I've done quite a bit of research, but desire firstand feedback from
fellow
travelers about recommended companies bearing in mind those factors I
cannot
tell from looking at the printed itinerary, e.g., quality of guides;
amount
of time devoted to attractions (would rather see 2-3 sites in depth than 6
on the run); number of shopping stops (our preferred number being zero);
and
group size & demographics (we will be a group of 7+ ranging in age from 12
to a very young & fit 71 and, if we don't do a custom trip, prefer a tour
of
a small to medium-sized group of travelers of all ages).

2 - What about Unescorted Tours? - We normally travel independently, but
need the logistical support on this one, e.g., prearranged domestic air &
ground transport/transfers/accommodations/luggage handling. Consequently,
it
might be ideal to find an operator that provides an unescorted or
"independent tour" without the daily tour agenda (we'd retain our own
private guides when necessary) and meals. But, I haven't seen many of
those
types of tours for China. Ideas?

3 - June/July Weather - We have no choice but to take this trip in
June/July. I see it will be hot, humid and, oh boy, rainy season. Can
anyone
elaborate on the rain--all day every day or brief tropical bursts or what?
Of course, we're going to be all over the map, from Beijing to Hong Kong
and
the usual tourist spots in between, so I imagine the answer is "it
varies,"
but it'd be helpful for me to have some insight. And any thoughts on
suffering the heat? I am thinking there is no way we can handle a long
walk
on the wall....

4 - The River Cruise: Upstream or Downstream? - Natch, the cruise
companies
all say "it doesn't matter." Are there pros & cons? All I can see is that
upstream adds a day to your itin., which might be nice for added
rest/relaxation; on the other hand, if it's a pretty slooooow experience,
we
might get a little stir crazy?

Thanks for any and all help.

Diana Ball
near Houston, TX

D Ball wrote:

(Just FYI, speaking of high end travel suppliers, R. Crusoe & Son are ex-A&K'ers
who have put together some incredible tours to China and elsewhere. I always
get ideas from looking at the itineraries & program offerings of the luxury
suppliers.)

Thanks for this reference. My husband and I are considering a trip to
Asia in '06 -- that's about as specific as we've gotten -- and we've
feel much the same way about independent travel for our trip as you feel
about China.


Question: Could you be more specific in stating why the river trip was "the
least interesting and least comfortable part of the trip?" I was definitely
looking at it as a way to provide some much-needed R 'n R, but....

Sure. We cruised upriver from Wuhan to Chongqing, that's five nights on
the river. The landscape was flat and relatively uninteresting from
Wuhan to Chenglingji, our first port of call the next day. I could have
happily done without that entire day spent on the river. The last day on
the river was, again, relatively uninteresting.

The scenery began to be more interesting the second day on the river
once we entered Xiling Gorge, the first of the three gorges. Our port
call at the Three Gorges Dam itself was fascinating. Our most impressive
sight came as we sailed alongside the end of the dam portion that had
been completed at the time. Being at river level gave us a sense of the
scale of the project that we did not get from above. You will ride up
the series of locks that are now functional with the completion of the
first phase of the dam, so you will not have the experience we had
sailing alongside.

Continuing up river and sailing through all three gorges was appealing
for both scenic and sociological reasons. In particular, we sailed
before the flooding began and there were markers at two heights along
the cliffs. The lower marker showed where the water would rise when the
first phase of the dam was completed. (This has already occurred.) The
second marker showed the expected water level in 2009, at the completion
of the project and the full flooding. We were interested in the
abandoned communities and structures along the river and taken with the
beauty of the gorges. However, I didn't need 2 1/2 days of scenery that
was somewhat repetitive. You will find the gorge less interesting as the
water level creeps up. One day, we took a particularly exciting
excursion in small motorized sampans up a branch off the Yangtze called
the Three Small Gorges. To some extent the scenery didn't change, but
seeing the cliffs from down on the river level and the watery speed of
the sampan ride made the experience memorable. (Our guides allowed each
person to spend some time riding in the front of the sampan for a
particular thrill. We changed position as the boat moved so changing
location was itself a bit of an adventure.)

The port calls are interesting but they are brief compared to the travel
time to get there. In addition, compared to the rich and interesting
stops in Beijing or Xian or Shanghai, the appeal of these stops is
somewhat limited. (I wonder if one of the stops will still be the food
market in Wanxian. With all the new information about flu jumping from
species to species, travelers are being warned to stay away from close
contact with live poultry in China. We were up close and personal in the
Wanxian food market. The shoppers select the live chicken, goose, duck
for dinner and the obliging seller either slaughters the animal or sends
home a live animal for the purchaser to do the deed.)

We cruised on the newest of the M.S. Victoria ships, then considered the
nicest boat on the river. The accommodations were spartan but adequate,
and you should be prepared to enter into the spirit of the trip. Perhaps
the biggest problem with the accommodations on the boat is the contrast
between the boat's standards and the standards of the 5-star hotels
throughout the rest of the trip. In China, there is essentially no
middle ground when it comes to hotels.

As for the entertainment on the Yangtze, expect nightly shows that make
the staff show on HAL seem professional. One night, the entertainment
was a passenger talent show and the awful performers were as much fun as
the wonderful performers.

The food on board wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. There was usually one
dish that was really excellent. In general, the chef tried to
Americanize most of the Chinese offerings along with offering American
choices. My husband and I were happier with the authentic food during
the land portion. Interestingly, even the people who were troubled by
the authenticity of the land meals weren't thrilled by the shipboard
meals. The American food was generally poor.

If you visit Wuhan, be absolutely certain to visit the Hubei Provincial
Museum. It features ancient musical instruments that were unearthed in
the tomb of a provincial governor. Museum employees give concerts on
these ancient instruments and the experience was amazing.

By now, you may be in the "too much information" mode! Still, I hope
something I've said is useful.

Karen Selwyn

Mike,

I'm so glad you weighed in--thanks for all of your "on point" & very helpful
comments.

Note, on your personal website, at the list of travels, you haven't added a
link for your China trip. I know how it is with maintenance of personal
websites. But, your China pictures are so wonderful, I just thought you
might want to throw up a quick hyperlink!

I will probably have more questions when I get deep into it. Thank you for
now!

Diana

Karen,

Wow! I love detail, and you are a terrific writer, so this is all
fascinating and helpful at the same time. Thank you for making the effort.

In many respects, the Yangtze river cruise sounds very much like what we
experienced on the Nile. (I commend that trip to you if you haven't made
it.) As I understand it, one possible difference between the time you
visited and now is the proliferation of commercial air out of Yichang? For
that reason, fewer cruises go beyond Yichang now, and based on what I had
already read about that stretch east to Wuhan and beyond toward Shanghai,
but confirmed by your remarks, we definitely plan to limit our cruise to the
Yichang-Chongqing segment. It is just that going upstream gives you a tad
bit more time (adds one day/night), and I think we would like that, if
nothing more than to simply be able to curl up in a corner with a book, or
sleep in an hour later, without feeling guilty.

If I could impose on your time again, did you do the Guilan/Li
River/Yangshuo jaunt? It is rather common on itineraries, and many people
rave about it. But that's 2 more days on an already long first trip to Asia.

Good luck in narrowing down your Asia '06 trip to manageable size! I see so
many enticing options.

Diana

Thanks, you are 100% right, I have some updating to do.


"D Ball" wrote in message
...
Mike,

I'm so glad you weighed in--thanks for all of your "on point" & very
helpful comments.

Note, on your personal website, at the list of travels, you haven't added
a link for your China trip. I know how it is with maintenance of personal
websites. But, your China pictures are so wonderful, I just thought you
might want to throw up a quick hyperlink!

I will probably have more questions when I get deep into it. Thank you for
now!

Diana