Driving in France

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:29:37 +0100, Tom P wrote in post :
:

On 11/07/2011 02:26 AM, Gerrit wrote:

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:50 +0100, Tom P wrote:

On 11/01/2011 06:55 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 31/10/2011 5:31 PM, James Silverton wrote:

Parisian traffic circles have to be experienced! Other cities like
London and Frankfurt are bad but don't compare with Paris. If you've
ever seen someone step off the kerb near a rental agency and be wiped
out, as I did, you'ld never rent in Paris.


I went on a trip to Europe with my brothers and their wives. and our
plan was to rent a car and end up in Paris. Having been in Paris
before,
I suggested that we drop the cars off at the airport and take public
transport into the city. A SiL who had lived in France and been to
Paris
supported that suggestion. After we arrived downtown they understood
and
were glad they had agreed with me,

I have been to the Arc de Triomphe several times and have never seen
the
traffic circle around it without at least one fender bender.

One day while being taken to my hotel by taxi I pointed out to the
driver that we had to go left because he was way over in the right hand
lane. He knew that, but according to him, the vehicle on the right had
the right of way, so if he went over to the right he could cut over to
the left and everyone would have to let him in. That helped to explain
why I saw so few cars without big dents in them.

Not just according to the driver, it's the law at intersections.

How did he survive in France without knowing that?
--

Martin


I have always thought that in counties where they drive (unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of a
vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the Vienna
Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps to the
right and applies to all intersections where it is not overridden by
priority signs (uncontrolled intersections), including side roads and
roundabouts (but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle shall
give way, at intersections other than those specified in paragraph 2 of
this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of this Convention,
to vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

And more or less rigorously adhered to, depending on country.

--
Tim C.

"Tom P" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2011 02:26 AM, Gerrit wrote:

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:50 +0100, Tom P wrote:

On 11/01/2011 06:55 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 31/10/2011 5:31 PM, James Silverton wrote:

Parisian traffic circles have to be experienced! Other cities like
London and Frankfurt are bad but don't compare with Paris. If you've
ever seen someone step off the kerb near a rental agency and be wiped
out, as I did, you'ld never rent in Paris.


I went on a trip to Europe with my brothers and their wives. and our
plan was to rent a car and end up in Paris. Having been in Paris
before,
I suggested that we drop the cars off at the airport and take public
transport into the city. A SiL who had lived in France and been to
Paris
supported that suggestion. After we arrived downtown they understood
and
were glad they had agreed with me,

I have been to the Arc de Triomphe several times and have never seen
the
traffic circle around it without at least one fender bender.

One day while being taken to my hotel by taxi I pointed out to the
driver that we had to go left because he was way over in the right
hand
lane. He knew that, but according to him, the vehicle on the right had
the right of way, so if he went over to the right he could cut over to
the left and everyone would have to let him in. That helped to explain
why I saw so few cars without big dents in them.

Not just according to the driver, it's the law at intersections.

How did he survive in France without knowing that?
--

Martin


I have always thought that in counties where they drive (unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of a
vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the Vienna
Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps to the right
and applies to all intersections where it is not overridden by priority
signs (uncontrolled intersections), including side roads and roundabouts
(but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle shall
give way, at intersections other than those specified in paragraph 2 of
this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of this Convention, to
vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

Just because it is the law it doesn't make it sensible.
Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to the
people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a traffic jam.

"Gerrit" writes:

"Tom P" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2011 02:26 AM, Gerrit wrote:

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:50 +0100, Tom P wrote:

On 11/01/2011 06:55 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 31/10/2011 5:31 PM, James Silverton wrote:

Parisian traffic circles have to be experienced! Other cities like
London and Frankfurt are bad but don't compare with Paris. If you've
ever seen someone step off the kerb near a rental agency and be wiped
out, as I did, you'ld never rent in Paris.


I went on a trip to Europe with my brothers and their wives. and our
plan was to rent a car and end up in Paris. Having been in Paris
before,
I suggested that we drop the cars off at the airport and take public
transport into the city. A SiL who had lived in France and been to
Paris
supported that suggestion. After we arrived downtown they understood
and
were glad they had agreed with me,

I have been to the Arc de Triomphe several times and have never seen
the
traffic circle around it without at least one fender bender.

One day while being taken to my hotel by taxi I pointed out to the
driver that we had to go left because he was way over in the
right hand
lane. He knew that, but according to him, the vehicle on the right had
the right of way, so if he went over to the right he could cut over to
the left and everyone would have to let him in. That helped to explain
why I saw so few cars without big dents in them.

Not just according to the driver, it's the law at intersections.

How did he survive in France without knowing that?
--

Martin


I have always thought that in counties where they drive (unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of
a vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the
Vienna Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps
to the right and applies to all intersections where it is not
overridden by priority signs (uncontrolled intersections), including
side roads and roundabouts (but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle
shall give way, at intersections other than those specified in
paragraph 2 of this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of
this Convention, to vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

Just because it is the law it doesn't make it sensible.
Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to
the people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a
traffic jam.

I hope you aren't implying that isn't sensible.

Roundabouts work very well when entering traffic yields to traffic in
the circle already. They work very badly under every other crazy
scheme I've seen tried (primarily in the US - I don't know why we
can't get the simple idea of how a roundabout is supposed to work
through our heads.

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:26:42 +0800, "Gerrit" wrote:


Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to the
people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a traffic jam.

Can you remember the first attempt to make roundabouts in The
Netherlands?
--

Martin


By that time I was living in Australia (I think) or else I was too young to
understand what the news was about. My parents took me to Oz in 1952.

Gerrit - Oz

On 12.11.11 03:20, Gerrit wrote:

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:26:42 +0800, "Gerrit" wrote:


Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to the
people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a traffic
jam.

Can you remember the first attempt to make roundabouts in The
Netherlands?

By that time I was living in Australia (I think) or else I was too young
to understand what the news was about. My parents took me to Oz in 1952.

Gerrit - Oz

You owe a lot to your parents.:-)

AFAIR normal priority to the right rules applied, in 1966 traffic
entering a roundabout had priority.

On 11.11.11 18:45, Doug Anderson wrote:
writes:

"Tom wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2011 02:26 AM, Gerrit wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:50 +0100, Tom wrote:

On 11/01/2011 06:55 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 31/10/2011 5:31 PM, James Silverton wrote:

Parisian traffic circles have to be experienced! Other cities like
London and Frankfurt are bad but don't compare with Paris. If you've
ever seen someone step off the kerb near a rental agency and be wiped
out, as I did, you'ld never rent in Paris.


I went on a trip to Europe with my brothers and their wives. and our
plan was to rent a car and end up in Paris. Having been in Paris
before,
I suggested that we drop the cars off at the airport and take public
transport into the city. A SiL who had lived in France and been to
Paris
supported that suggestion. After we arrived downtown they understood
and
were glad they had agreed with me,

I have been to the Arc de Triomphe several times and have never seen
the
traffic circle around it without at least one fender bender.

One day while being taken to my hotel by taxi I pointed out to the
driver that we had to go left because he was way over in the
right hand
lane. He knew that, but according to him, the vehicle on the right had
the right of way, so if he went over to the right he could cut over to
the left and everyone would have to let him in. That helped to explain
why I saw so few cars without big dents in them.

Not just according to the driver, it's the law at intersections.

How did he survive in France without knowing that?
--

Martin


I have always thought that in counties where they drive (unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of
a vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the
Vienna Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps
to the right and applies to all intersections where it is not
overridden by priority signs (uncontrolled intersections), including
side roads and roundabouts (but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle
shall give way, at intersections other than those specified in
paragraph 2 of this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of
this Convention, to vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

Just because it is the law it doesn't make it sensible.
Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to
the people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a
traffic jam.

I hope you aren't implying that isn't sensible.

Roundabouts work very well when entering traffic yields to traffic in
the circle already. They work very badly under every other crazy
scheme I've seen tried (primarily in the US - I don't know why we
can't get the simple idea of how a roundabout is supposed to work
through our heads.

They don't work well when there is heavy traffic and a predominant entry
point. Down stream traffic can't get into the roundabout.
You find traffic lights at the access points of some UK roundabouts.

On 11/11/2011 12:40 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 10/11/2011 1:29 PM, Tom P wrote:

I have always thought that in counties where they drive (unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of a
vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the Vienna
Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps to the
right and applies to all intersections where it is not overridden by
priority signs (uncontrolled intersections), including side roads and
roundabouts (but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle shall
give way, at intersections other than those specified in paragraph 2 of
this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of this Convention,
to vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

I understand that part.... I think.... Where a car vehicles approach an
uncontrolled intersection, the vehicle approaching from the right is
given the right of way.

That is not what I was referring to. The taxi in which I was a passenger
was approaching the intersection from the north. He needed to make a
left turn to go to the east. There were already a number of cars in the
left lane and waiting for the oncoming traffic to clear a bit in order
to make their left turns. My taxi driver swung over to the right, making
me think he was going to make a right turn and I thought he was taking
me for a more expensive ride. But his told me about this right of way
story. Makes me wonder why there were left turn and right turn lane on
the right and left respectively.

ok.. don't tell me he jumped the queue in front of all the cars queued
to turn left. That's not a traffic rule, that's taxi driver chutzpah.

I see something like that frequently in the morning on the left hand
lane turning to get on the highway. The light phase for the LH turnoff
is very short and there's a big queue. Some people drive right past the
turnoff, U-turn and then have an easy RH turn onto the highway.

On 11/11/2011 12:55 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 10/11/2011 2:18 PM, Tom P wrote:

If, as you say, this is law, I am left wondering why the have left turn
lanes on the left and right turn lanes on the right. If this is the way
they are supposed to drive in Paris, the left turn lane should be on the
left.

Possibly he pulled over into the entrance to a small side street. Or
just assumed that everyone else would think he was driving out of a
small side street.

No. It was a major intersection. This was major intersection with a
traffic light. There were cars in the left lane waiting to make a left
and cars in the other two lanes were going straight through..... untl
they got held up as my taxi driver cut across their lanes in order to
pull around the cars waiting to turn left. Basically, he was passing on
the right to make a left turn, cutting in front of those who appeared to
be following the rules of the road, and screwing up traffic flow in the
proces.

like I say ... taxi driver.


Between all the parked cars it's hard to see the side
streets. In any case he's been driving in Paris longer than you or I
have. Back in the 70's it was normal to drive round Paris at night
without any lights at all. Drivers would just flash their headlights at
intersections. And of course only stupid foreigners would think of
leaving the car in gear or setting the parking brake.

As I said, it helps to explain why all the cars in Paris are banged up.

On 11/11/2011 02:26 PM, Gerrit wrote:

"Tom P" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2011 02:26 AM, Gerrit wrote:

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:30:50 +0100, Tom P wrote:

On 11/01/2011 06:55 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
On 31/10/2011 5:31 PM, James Silverton wrote:

Parisian traffic circles have to be experienced! Other cities like
London and Frankfurt are bad but don't compare with Paris. If you've
ever seen someone step off the kerb near a rental agency and be
wiped
out, as I did, you'ld never rent in Paris.


I went on a trip to Europe with my brothers and their wives. and our
plan was to rent a car and end up in Paris. Having been in Paris
before,
I suggested that we drop the cars off at the airport and take public
transport into the city. A SiL who had lived in France and been to
Paris
supported that suggestion. After we arrived downtown they understood
and
were glad they had agreed with me,

I have been to the Arc de Triomphe several times and have never seen
the
traffic circle around it without at least one fender bender.

One day while being taken to my hotel by taxi I pointed out to the
driver that we had to go left because he was way over in the right
hand
lane. He knew that, but according to him, the vehicle on the right
had
the right of way, so if he went over to the right he could cut
over to
the left and everyone would have to let him in. That helped to
explain
why I saw so few cars without big dents in them.

Not just according to the driver, it's the law at intersections.

How did he survive in France without knowing that?
--

Martin


I have always thought that in counties where they drive (unnaturally) on
the right hand side of the road they should have a give way to the left
rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_to_the_right
quote:
Priority to the right is a right-of-way system, in which a driver of a
vehicle shall give way to vehicles approaching from the right at
intersections. The system is stipulated in Article 18.4.a of the
Vienna Convention on Road Traffic for countries where traffic keeps to
the right and applies to all intersections where it is not overridden
by priority signs (uncontrolled intersections), including side roads
and roundabouts (but not paths or earth-tracks).
/quote

You can see the official wording he
www.unece.org/trans/conventn/crt1968e.pdf

(page 18)

quote:
In States where traffic keeps to the right the driver of a vehicle
shall give way, at intersections other than those specified in
paragraph 2 of this Article and in Article 25, paragraphs 2 and 4 of
this Convention, to vehicles approaching from his right;
/quote

Just because it is the law it doesn't make it sensible.
Take the round-abouts in Europe. They all have to have a give way to the
people on the round-about otherwise they fill up and cause a traffic jam.



Well they've started to build a lot more roundabouts in Germany, but
they all have give way signs. What I don't like is that German drivers,
once they are on the roundabout don't give any signals to indicate when
they are exiting.

On 11/02/2011 01:59 AM, David Hatunen wrote:
On Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:48:42 -0700, Irwell wrote:

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:22:28 +0000 (UTC), David Hatunen wrote:

The main boulevards of Paris were created in the mid-19th century by
Baron Haussmann.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haussma...ation_of_Paris

So the Army could fire their cannon balls down them.

Or, more likely, grapeshot.

Whatever they needed to keep the rabble under control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune