Jews Strive To Restore Christmas Trees At Seattle Airport

On 16-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:

And on past performance, we can expect those lawsuits to
follow shortly. When the government lets employees go
home for Christmas and thanksgiving, it is establishing
a religion :-)

Huhuh..... off the planet.

That's the religion I want. Is it Thanksgiving every, once a day or what?
Bring on the turkey, yams and cranberries.

Is it recipe exchange time?

Susan

"Arturo Magidin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PTravel wrote:

wrote in message
news:KWohh.2258$Jb6.1189@trnddc03...

On 15-Dec-2006, "PTravel" wrote:

"Mike Hunt" postmaster@localhost wrote in message
. ..
Tchiowa wrote:

Not bigotry. Where talking about secular vs. religious. Do you
struggle
with that concept?


Did Congress make Christmas a national holiday because it had nothing
to

do with religion? I doubt it.

Congress made it a national holiday for the same reason that the
Supreme
Court ruled that creches are not religious symbols -

Did they do that?
I thought they did that for the *trees*....

I believe that they did, i.e. "creches are holiday symbols of the winter
season and not religious." The reasoning is absolutely bizarre and
reflects, I think, the extent to which Christianity has attempted to
inculcate itself into government.. However, my recollection of those
cases
said, essentially, you can't just display a creche, you must display it
with
other "traditional" winter seasson paraphenalia, e.g. menorahs.

There were two separate cases. In Lynch v. Donnelly, in 1984, the
court did indeed rule that any benefit to religion from a creche was
"indirect, remote, and incidental."

However, in 1989, in Allegheny County v. Greater Pittsburgh ACLU, the
court struck down a creche display in a county courthouse (which bore
the words "Gloria in Excelsis Deo". In that same case, the Court
upheld the display of a tree-and-hanukiyah dipslay. They argued that
"the combined display[...] simply recognizes that both Christmas and
Hanukkah are part of the same winter-holiday season which has attained
a secular status in our society."

The decision was prety fragmented. Looking it up in findlaw (492
U.S. 573 (1989) ), Blackmun delivered the opinion of the court for
some parts, which struck down the creche with the angel's words.
Those parts were joined by Brennan, Thurgood Marshall, John Paul
Stevens, and O'Connor.

Blackmun was also joined by Stevens and O'Connor in discussing the
precedents and the reason why they disagreed with the dissenters on
this. But he was only joined by Stevens in arguing that the dissent in
Lynch v. Donnelly should now be the correct rule.

As far as the tree-and-hanukiyah display, Blackmun concluded it was
okay because of context, but nobody joined him. O'Connor concluded the
display was fine, because "the Christmas tree, whatever its origins,
is widely viewed today as a secular symbol of the Christmas
holiday. Although there may be certain secular aspects to Chanukah, it
is primarily a religious holiday[.]" But she argued the inclusion with
the tree and with a sign celebrating liberty made it a "message of
pluralism and freedom of belief during the holiday season", and
because the display was in a park, and so could not be reasonably
interpreted as an edorsement of judaism or christianity, or
disapproval of alternate beliefs. Brennan and Stevens joined her with
regards to striking down the creche display.

Brennan thought both displays unconstitutional; he was joined by
Marshall and Stevens. Stevens also wrote an opinion believing both
displays unconstitutional, also joined by both Marshall and Brennan.

Kennedy agreed with regards to the tree-and-hanukiyah, disagreed about
the creche (believing it to be constitutional following Lynch). He was
joined by Rehnquist, Scalia, and Byron White. They disagreed entirely
with the arguments of the others, though, even with regards to the
tree-and-hanukiyah display.

One of those opinions that don't really do much to clarify and
generally mostly just confuse.

But... in summary: the court has ruled that context is very
important. A creche, by itself, depending on location and context, may
be a religious symbol and then again, it may not (since it was once
ruled not to be, and once ruled to be).

But they did definitely rule christmas trees were not religious
symbols (anymore).

Very well-done summary, Arturo. Thank you very much.



--
================================================== ====================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes" by Bill Watterson)
================================================== ====================

Arturo Magidin
magidin-at-member-ams-org

On 16-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:

"Tchiowa" wrote in message
ps.com...


Why is it OK for the airport to put up flags on Memorial Day or
pictures of turkeys on Thanksgiving but not trees at Christmas?

Wait, that'll be next. Banning the celebration of the holy St. Turkey.

Anyone stupid enough to pretend that Memorial Day or
Thanksgiving are solely Xian is dumb enough to worship
a turkey...

Susan

On 17-Dec-2006, "Sancho Panza" wrote:

Tchiowa" wrote in message
ups.com...

Actually the overwhelming majority of American do regardless of
religious belief. The Christians include a religious facet to the
celebration, the rest of use celebrate the family and giving part of
it.

Absolutely meaningless and baseless assertion based on one person's
predetermined outlook.


One of my best friends is Jewish. They have a Christmas tree in their
house and they exchange presents Christmas morning. They must be drunk,
right?

One of my best friends in Christian and says what you are saying is
completely off the wall.

This is like saying "I know Jews who eat pork and descerate Shabbos,
so every Jew must be allowed to do this and even encouraged to do so."

Susan

On 17-Dec-2006, "PTravel" wrote:

Hey, my personal preference would be that none of this stuff go up -- I
don't want tax dollars paying for menorahs, either.

What, were we separated at birth or something??

Susan

wrote in message news:_lphh.2275$Jb6.2273@trnddc03...

On 17-Dec-2006, Frank Mayhar wrote:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:10:03 +0000, flaviaR wrote:
Uh, what you're saying is that it's no more religious than any other
relgious holiday....

Christmas may have been a religious holiday, and to many it may still be
a
religious holiday, but that just doesn't matter.

A few years ago I was in China on Christmas. The only decorations I saw
were in hotels catering to foreigners.

Precisely.

Unfortunately, the answer in China is a little more complicated. There are
Christian Chinese and they celebrate Christmas. Christmas is also
recognized, to a slight extent, as a commercial season, just as the Chinese
now recognize the western New Year, despite it being a different date than
Lunar New Year (which is THE big holiday in China). However, Frank's
observation is pretty much correct. We've been in China during the
Christmas and New Year periods a number of times. For instance, last year
we were in Xi'an. There was absolutely no observance of the holiday in any
way, shape or form, except for decorations in our hotel, which was part of a
western chain. Because of the large number of foreigners, you'll see a
little bit more in the way of acknowledgement of Christmas in Beijing but,
again, it is primarily to accomodate foreigners. In Hong Kong, on the other
hand, there are Christmas sales, Christmas decorations, trees, etc. That's
because, for 198 years, Hong Kong was a British colony. And,. of course,
the British have a culture, tradition and heritage that is Christian -- they
even have a state religion. The PRC, on the other hand, has no Christian
culture, tradition and heritage, hence Christmas is a non-event, except to
keep the Christian foreigners happy.



They've so thoroughly convinced themselves that it's
_their_ holiday that they feel personally threatened when they see
someone
else celebrating it differently.
That's how this particular thread started.
My beef is having their celebration forced on us as well.

Well, see, that's where we differ, you and I. Like those Chinese, I just
don't give a ****.

If you don't have "competing beliefs", as it were, I can see where it
wouldn't.

Susan

Yeah, it's annoying and yeah, I don't like having
religious crap forced on me, but as far as I'm concerned, those idiots
that scream and cry about saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry
Christmas" are, well, insignificant.

wrote in message news:_8qhh.4213$od6.4175@trnddc04...

On 17-Dec-2006, "PTravel" wrote:

Hey, my personal preference would be that none of this stuff go up -- I
don't want tax dollars paying for menorahs, either.

What, were we separated at birth or something??

Susan

Great minds, and all that .

PTravel wrote:
wrote in message news:_lphh.2275$Jb6.2273@trnddc03...
On 17-Dec-2006, Frank Mayhar wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:10:03 +0000, flaviaR wrote:

Uh, what you're saying is that it's no more religious than any other
relgious holiday....

Christmas may have been a religious holiday, and to many it may still be
a
religious holiday, but that just doesn't matter.

A few years ago I was in China on Christmas. The only decorations I saw
were in hotels catering to foreigners.

Precisely.

Unfortunately, the answer in China is a little more complicated. There are
Christian Chinese and they celebrate Christmas. Christmas is also
recognized, to a slight extent, as a commercial season, just as the Chinese
now recognize the western New Year, despite it being a different date than
Lunar New Year (which is THE big holiday in China). However, Frank's
observation is pretty much correct. We've been in China during the
Christmas and New Year periods a number of times. For instance, last year
we were in Xi'an. There was absolutely no observance of the holiday in any
way, shape or form, except for decorations in our hotel, which was part of a
western chain.

How dare those vile pagans call the place Xi'an!

--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1587154838/...edanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"

"Dan Clore" wrote in message
...
PTravel wrote:
wrote in message
news:_lphh.2275$Jb6.2273@trnddc03...
On 17-Dec-2006, Frank Mayhar wrote:
On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:10:03 +0000, flaviaR wrote:

Uh, what you're saying is that it's no more religious than any other
relgious holiday....

Christmas may have been a religious holiday, and to many it may still be
a
religious holiday, but that just doesn't matter.

A few years ago I was in China on Christmas. The only decorations I saw
were in hotels catering to foreigners.

Precisely.

Unfortunately, the answer in China is a little more complicated. There
are Christian Chinese and they celebrate Christmas. Christmas is also
recognized, to a slight extent, as a commercial season, just as the
Chinese now recognize the western New Year, despite it being a different
date than Lunar New Year (which is THE big holiday in China). However,
Frank's observation is pretty much correct. We've been in China during
the Christmas and New Year periods a number of times. For instance, last
year we were in Xi'an. There was absolutely no observance of the holiday
in any way, shape or form, except for decorations in our hotel, which was
part of a western chain.

How dare those vile pagans call the place Xi'an!

That's funny -- I didn't even think about that. Xi'an, of course, is a
pinyin approximation of the actual place name, which is a centuries old city
in Sha'an Xi province.


--
Dan Clore

My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
http://amazon.com/o/ASIN/1587154838/...edanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/clorebeast/
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"

brique wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
brique wrote:
[...]
So, your solution is that everyone should become christians,
if not, they should at least pretend to be christians. So, will
you return that respectful gesture by fasting during Ramadan?
Will you synbolically bath in the Potomac in solidarity with
the Hindus bathing in the Ganges? Will you don a kippa and
recite the Torah at Seder? Will you light candles at your
ancestors graves and bang drums all night to keep the
shintoists happy? Or is it all one-way traffic, as usual?

Off the top of my head, I can think of major community-inclusive
celebrations in San Francisco for St. Patrick's Day, Chinese New Year,
the Japanese Cherry Blossom Festival, Dias de los Muertos, Cinco de
Mayo, Carnaval, Pride, and others, where probably a majority if not an
overwhelming majority of the celebrants are not culturally or
religiously affiliated with that of the celebration, or even really
know in any detail what the original cultural or religious significance
of the celebration is.

If somebody's going to throw a party, why not take advantage of it? If
the Hindu community had a big Diwali celebration that was open to the
whole community, people would go and celebrate. They probably do in
the south bay.

What I would view as odd, distasteful, or even possibly deranged is if,
say, some part of the Irish community, rather than have an inclusive
St. Patrick's Day celebration, threatened to sue the city to revoke its
licenses if the Chinese New Year parade did not include shamrocks and
green beer.

The matter here is that james has stated that not celebrating christmas is
the act of a bigot.

The closest statement of James's I could find in this thread that
matches your claim is:

: No one must celebrate [Christmas], but any one who not
: only does not celebrate it, but gets upset and offended by
: other people celebrating it, is indeed a bigot.

which only "matches" in the sense of partial text matching, and
semantically bears nothing like the meaning you attribute to it. I
presume that this is the statement to which you refer, since you make
the same incorrect interpretation in your response to it. I suggest
you re-read.

James's immediate point in this subthread seems to be that rather than
complain that a traditional festival in which communities and families
participate has historical Christian symbolism, minority religions or
ideologies should take an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude of
co-opting the holiday's symbols with their own religious significance.
The same way that the Christians did to end up gathering all their
presents under a pagan Germanic religious symbol on an old Roman feast
day dedicated to the father of the Gods, himself co-opted from the
Greeks.

The original Kwanzaa holiday was apparently intended as a substitute
for Christmas: "Kwanzaa is not an imitation, but an alternative, in
fact, an oppositional alternative to the spookism, mysticism and
non-earth based practices which plague us as a people". This
confrontational tactic was apparently re-thought or abandoned, however,
and more recently has been recast as a complement to traditional
religious observance: "Today, many African-American families celebrate
Kwanzaa along with Christmas and New Year's. Frequently, both Christmas
trees and kinaras, the traditional candle holder symbolic of
African-American roots, share space in kwanzaa celebrating households.
To them, Kwanzaa is an opportunity to incorporate elements of their
particular ethnic heritage into holiday observances and celebrations of
Christmas." A process that has a long line of historical precedents,
and which tends to be successful precisely because for many if not most
celebrants, the main point of the holiday is family and community unity
and tradition, not theology.

[...]

- Nate