American Airlines' Preaching Pilot

In article 1meVb.114317$U%5.592505@attbi_s03,
"Geoff" wrote:

"ZenIsWhen" wrote in message
...

"rom" wrote in message
. ..
American Airlines pilot suggests passengers discuss Christianity
Associated Press

NEW YORK - An American Airlines pilot flying passengers to New York
asked
Christians on board to identify themselves and suggested the
non-Christians
discuss the faith with them, a spokesman for the Fort Worth, Texas-based
airline
said Saturday.

Flight 34 was headed from Los Angeles to John F. Kennedy Airport on
Friday
afternoon, said spokesman Tim Wagner. The pilot, whose identity was not
released, had been making flight announcements and then asked that the
Christians on board raise their hands, Wagner said.

The pilot told the airline that he then suggested the other passengers
use
the
flight time to talk to the identified Christians about their faith,
Wagner
said.

The pilot later told passengers he would be available at the end of the
flight
to talk about his first announcement.

Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident, and that the
company had
guidelines about appropriate behavior. He said the pilot had just
returned
to
work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be
appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," Wagner
said.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/...te/7900122.htm

Wait a minute ... perhaps the intent was to allow rational, non christians
(and atheists) to talk the christians OUT of their dubious religious
beliefs.

I was hoping that too until I read: "...the pilot had just returned to work
from
a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica."

Maybe he works undercover for MI-5?

Probably a Mormon or other Christian denomination that does charitable
work in order to bribe unfortunates into believing in his fantasy.

In article k.net,
"None" wrote:

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Miguel Cruz) wrote:

None wrote:
"BTR1701" wrote:

You could file a lawsuit but you'd have no grounds for it.
American Airlines is a private company. They can plaster the inside of
their airplane cabins with bible verses if that's what they want to do.

Sorry, they are a PUBLIC company, publicly traded on the stock exchange,
and HEAVILY regulated by the FAA and the DOT.

I don't think either the FAA or DOT has any regulations about prosletyzing
by airline staff.

And even if they did, the regulations would likely be struck down as a
constitutional violation.

None of that was my point, which was that even as a privately held
company . they have limits

Not government imposed limits regarding prosyletizing.

and AA has one of the stiffest employee manuals I've ever seen.

That's fine. That's American's internal company policies and rules. It's
not mandated by the government and if a pilot violates them, he can be
reprimanded and disciplined by the airline but that doesn *not* give the
passengers a cause of action to sue.

This pilot is in deep ****.

Perhaps but not from the government or the courts.

In article , Christopher A.
Lee wrote:

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:31:39 GMT, BTR1701
wrote:

In article , Christopher A.
Lee wrote:

I, for one, am very curious to see how AA handles this incident. I'm
not an AA fan anyway, but I do have to fly them from time to time.
If AA
tolerates this kind of behavior from it's pilots, I will make it
point to avoid
them at all costs. And I'll be sure to let them know why.

The sad thing is that if they take any action, the captain will claim
his first amendment rights are being abridged. It's the sort of thing
Pat Robertson loves.

And the captain won't have any more of a leg to stand on than his
passengers do.

Actually, the passengers do have a leg to stand on. He doesn't.

Neither one does.

Cite me the law American Airlines has broken through the actions of its
pilot.

Put the legal citation here --------

AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Note how it only prohibits Congress (and by extension, the government)
from abridging speech and religion.

Private companies are not covered.

So the airline is free to prosyletize without violating the customers'
rights and it's also free to fire or discipline the captain without
violating his right to free speech.

No, it is not. Most businesses have anti-harrassment rules. I know my
own employer does.

The rules are created and defined by the business. The airline can
change its own rules to exempt religious prosyletization from the
definition of harassment if that's what it wants to do.

The point is, there's no *law* prohibiting an airline from putting
bibles in the seat pockets, printing bible verses on the napkins and
starting every flight with a prayer if that's what it wants to do.

They might lose business when people stop flying on their planes but
it's not ILLEGAL.

In article .net,
"None" wrote:

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...

And you know who the sky marshals are on any given flight?

'Cause they stand up and announce "Hi, I'm Bob. I'll be your sky
marshal this morning..."

LOL, they are easy to pick out. They'll only fly first class

Wrong.

(the best
of course) they usually sit in the exact same seats all the time, they board
ahead of everyone else and are already seated,

Wrong.


You're 0 for 2. Good job.

and they generally look like dorks.

That's the first time I've ever heard a woman described as "looking like
a dork", but hey, each to his own.

Here's a hint: the people you think are sky marshals, who board first,
etc. etc. are most likely either airline personnel catching a freebie
flight or FBI, ATF, Secret Service or local police flying on official
business, going from one duty assignment to another. They are not sky
marshals.

But that's okay. As long as self-important dullards like you think you
can spot them every time, then when it really comes down to it, the
hijackers will be rather surprised when the real marshals stand up and
take them out.

In article , John Popelish
wrote:

nobody wrote:

ZenIsWhen wrote:
He is paid, and expected, to be a pilot - nothing more!

Should that also preclude the "welcome aboard flight xx" messages from
pilots Or announcements that passengers on the left can see the grand
canyion ?

And what if there was a large group of religious zealots on board
(organised group), wouldn't it then be proper for the pilot to make a prayer ?

It takes judgement. That pilot lacked judgement.

The pilot asked Christians to raise their hands, and then said that
anybody who didn't have their hand up was crazy.

You seem to be hallucinating.

Where in this news report does the word "crazy" appear?

NEW YORK - An American Airlines pilot flying passengers to New York asked
Christians on board to identify themselves and suggested the non-Christians
discuss the faith with them, a spokesman for the Fort Worth, Texas-based airline
said Saturday.

Flight 34 was headed from Los Angeles to John F. Kennedy Airport on Friday
afternoon, said spokesman Tim Wagner. The pilot, whose identity was not
released, had been making flight announcements and then asked that the
Christians on board raise their hands, Wagner said.

The pilot told the airline that he then suggested the other passengers use the
flight time to talk to the identified Christians about their faith, Wagner said.

The pilot later told passengers he would be available at the end of the flight
to talk about his first announcement.

Wagner said the airline was investigating the incident, and that the company had
guidelines about appropriate behavior. He said the pilot had just returned to
work from a weeklong mission trip to Costa Rica.

"It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be
appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," Wagner said.

BTR1701 wrote:

In article , John Popelish
wrote:

nobody wrote:

ZenIsWhen wrote:
He is paid, and expected, to be a pilot - nothing more!

Should that also preclude the "welcome aboard flight xx" messages from
pilots Or announcements that passengers on the left can see the grand
canyion ?

And what if there was a large group of religious zealots on board
(organised group), wouldn't it then be proper for the pilot to make a prayer ?

It takes judgement. That pilot lacked judgement.

The pilot asked Christians to raise their hands, and then said that
anybody who didn't have their hand up was crazy.

You seem to be hallucinating.

Where in this news report does the word "crazy" appear?
That one didn't report it. This one (and many more) did.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-142438c.html

Do a google news search for [american airlines pilot crazy].
--
John Popelish

"Christopher A. Lee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:59:07 GMT, "PTRAVEL"
wrote:

You are right about one thing: there is no basis for a lawsuit against
AA.
However, I hope you are not suggesting that the pilot's actions were
appropriate. Not only were they incredibly rude and disrespectful to
_all_
of those who do not share his faith, but they show incredibly poor
judgment
on the pilot's part. People with poor judgment should not be piloting
airplanes.

I, for one, am very curious to see how AA handles this incident. I'm not
an
AA fan anyway, but I do have to fly them from time to time. If AA
tolerates
this kind of behavior from it's pilots, I will make it point to avoid
them
at all costs. And I'll be sure to let them know why.

The sad thing is that if they take any action, the captain will claim
his first amendment rights are being abridged. It's the sort of thing
Pat Robertson loves.

He has no First Amendment rights in this context. The First Amendment is a
restriction on _government_ action, and has nothing to do with private
employers.

"Christopher A. Lee" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 23:31:39 GMT, BTR1701
wrote:

In article , Christopher A.
Lee wrote:

I, for one, am very curious to see how AA handles this incident. I'm
not an AA fan anyway, but I do have to fly them from time to time. If
AA
tolerates this kind of behavior from it's pilots, I will make it point
to avoid
them at all costs. And I'll be sure to let them know why.

The sad thing is that if they take any action, the captain will claim
his first amendment rights are being abridged. It's the sort of thing
Pat Robertson loves.

And the captain won't have any more of a leg to stand on than his
passengers do.

Actually, the passengers do have a leg to stand on. He doesn't.

Nope. No government action, no First Amendment rights involved.



American Airlines is a private business, not the government. It can tell
its employees to shut the hell up whenever they like.

And he'll probably still sue, claiming religious discrimination,

He can try, but he'll lose. He's not being discriminated against because of
his religion, but because of specific conduct, i.e. he can believe whatever
he wants, but he better keep his mouth shut about it during working hours.



AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Note how it only prohibits Congress (and by extension, the government)
from abridging speech and religion.

Private companies are not covered.

So the airline is free to prosyletize without violating the customers'
rights and it's also free to fire or discipline the captain without
violating his right to free speech.

No, it is not. Most businesses have anti-harrassment rules. I know my
own employer does.

Right. And what the pilot did would almost certainly violate them. No
Jewish, Shinto or atheist FAs on board?

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article , "PTRAVEL"
wrote:

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article k.net,
"None" wrote:

"BTR1701" wrote in message
...
In article
.net,
"None" wrote:

Great, another xtian freak just chomping at the bit to **** off
the next rag head who's bound and determined to teach a whole
plane
load of "infidels" all about Allah! That little announcement
would be all it would take
to push any hanky head over the edge.

Well, I'm an atheist myself but I think it's ridiculous to suggest
we as Americans should censor ourselves and give up our rights to
discuss matters openly and freely because we might tick off a
terrorist.

I'm certainly not going to keep silent because some religious
whack-job
might get worked up over something I say.

This was different. This was a pilot with a captive passenger load,
who was inviting those onboard who WERE xtians to bend the ears of
those
who weren't, most likey for the duration of the flight.

And those who weren't Christians can politely say "Can you please shut
the hell up. I'm trying to sleep (or read or whatever)."

You seem to think there's a fundamental right to never have an
unpleasant experience in life.

You are right about one thing: there is no basis for a lawsuit against
AA. However, I hope you are not suggesting that the pilot's actions were
appropriate.

Not at all. Personally, I would have been spectacularly annoyed. But my
remedy for that is to stop patronizing their business.

Mine, too, though I'd be awfully tempted to leave the plane, even to the
point of asking that the door be opened if had already been shut.


I would have no basis in *law* for filing a suit against them.

There _may_ (and only _may_) be some basis in breach of contract, though
it's a real stretch, i.e. my contract with your airline doesn't require that
I listen to religous indoctrination, etc. Either way, though, it would be
an extremely stupid law suit and wouldn't have much chance of prevailing.



Too many people these days think that if something ****es them off, they
should be able to recover money from someone for it.

Yep. No argument there.

"John Popelish" wrote in message
...

snip

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/sto...p-142438c.html


Wow! It was even worse than originally reported. Some excerpts:

"An American Airlines pilot terrified passengers aboard a Los Angeles-to-New
York flight when he asked Christians to identify themselves and then called
those who weren't Christian "crazy," witnesses and an airline spokesman said
yesterday.
"Fearing the pilot might have some sinister plans for the flight, many
frantic passengers tried to reach their families on their cell phones,
witnesses told CBS News.

"Flight attendants contacted ground control about the incident, assuring
passengers that they didn't think they were in any real danger.
"Nelligan said she and other passengers thought the behavior was "bizarre"
and wondered whether his comments were a threat."

I take it back. There very well may be grounds for a law suit, specifically
negligent and/or intentional infliction of emotional distress.

This guy is a nut bag! If AA doesn't fire him, and PUBLICLY, then I think a
letter is in order from everyone who, like me, refuses to fly with pilots so
lacking in judgment that they can do this.






Do a google news search for [american airlines pilot crazy].
--
John Popelish