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French Family Values...



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 29th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Gregory Morrow
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Default French Family Values...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp

July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've
found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach
us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good
at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care
system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies
really doing that badly?

The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a
head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and
Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in
priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive
societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time.
And there's a lot to be said for the French choice.

First things first: given all the bad-mouthing the French receive, you may
be surprised that I describe their society as "productive." Yet according to
the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, productivity in
France - G.D.P. per hour worked - is actually a bit higher than in the
United States.

It's true that France's G.D.P. per person is well below that of the United
States. But that's because French workers spend more time with their
families.

O.K., I'm oversimplifying a bit. There are several reasons why the French
put in fewer hours of work per capita than we do. One is that some of the
French would like to work, but can't: France's unemployment rate, which
tends to run about four percentage points higher than the U.S. rate, is a
real problem. Another is that many French citizens retire early. But the
main story is that full-time French workers work shorter weeks and take more
vacations than full-time American workers.

The point is that to the extent that the French have less income than we do,
it's mainly a matter of choice. And to see the consequences of that choice,
let's ask how the situation of a typical middle-class family in France
compares with that of its American counterpart.

The French family, without question, has lower disposable income. This
translates into lower personal consumption: a smaller car, a smaller house,
less eating out.

But there are compensations for this lower level of consumption. Because
French schools are good across the country, the French family doesn't have
to worry as much about getting its children into a good school district. Nor
does the French family, with guaranteed access to excellent health care,
have to worry about losing health insurance or being driven into bankruptcy
by medical bills.

Perhaps even more important, however, the members of that French family are
compensated for their lower income with much more time together. Fully
employed French workers average about seven weeks of paid vacation a year.
In America, that figure is less than four.

So which society has made the better choice?

I've been looking at a new study of international differences in working
hours by Alberto Alesina and Edward Glaeser, at Harvard, and Bruce
Sacerdote, at Dartmouth. The study's main point is that differences in
government regulations, rather than culture (or taxes), explain why
Europeans work less than Americans.

But the study also suggests that in this case, government regulations
actually allow people to make a desirable tradeoff - to modestly lower
income in return for more time with friends and family - the kind of deal an
individual would find hard to negotiate. The authors write: "It is hard to
obtain more vacation for yourself from your employer and even harder, if you
do, to coordinate with all your friends to get the same deal and go on
vacation together."

And they even offer some statistical evidence that working fewer hours makes
Europeans happier, despite the loss of potential income.

It's not a definitive result, and as they note, the whole subject is
"politically charged." But let me make an observation: some of that
political charge seems to have the wrong sign.

American conservatives despise European welfare states like France. Yet many
of them stress the importance of "family values." And whatever else you may
say about French economic policies, they seem extremely supportive of the
family as an institution. Senator Rick Santorum, are you reading this?"

/




  #2  
Old July 29th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Robert J Carpenter
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Default


"Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone

else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others.


I hope I have these details correct.

One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is
much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance
exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the
Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or
three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the
entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These
preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US
universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so
graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a
G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like
Harvard or MIT).

There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't
know anyone who went that route.

Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment
as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges.



  #3  
Old July 29th, 2005, 07:47 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Robert J Carpenter wrote:
"Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone

else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others.


I hope I have these details correct.

One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is
much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance
exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the
Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or
three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the
entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These
preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US
universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so
graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a
G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like
Harvard or MIT).


Isn't there a lot of "tracking" of students early in their school
career (say, from the early teens on) in Europe? The best students are
encouraged to take the harder classes, sit for the exams, etc., while
other students are encouraged to do "vocational/technical" things
instead?

While that's true in the US as well, here there's an undercurrent of
"everyone should go to college", even if it's a two-year community
college, and career paths not involving the academic system are
looked down upon, sometimes.

Here in the US (Canada too), we also provide other inducements (some
controversial) to encourage students into higher education: grants,
low-interest loans, affirmative action, etc. I rarely hear about these
things in the context of the European educational system; perhaps
someone
can fill me in.


There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't
know anyone who went that route.

Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment
as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges.


I don't know about France, but I did read a news story about certain
German students who stayed in school (at a low cost to them), taking
classes for years, but not really making progress to a degree....

  #4  
Old July 29th, 2005, 09:09 PM
Viking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

Another is that many French citizens retire early.


I've heard, unofficially, that 40% of people over 55 are retired.
  #5  
Old July 29th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Gregory Morrow
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote:

Robert J Carpenter wrote:
"Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone

else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others.


I hope I have these details correct.

One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is
much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance
exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the
Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or
three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the
entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These
preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US
universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so
graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a
G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like
Harvard or MIT).


Isn't there a lot of "tracking" of students early in their school
career (say, from the early teens on) in Europe? The best students are
encouraged to take the harder classes, sit for the exams, etc., while
other students are encouraged to do "vocational/technical" things
instead?



Yes, there is a tracking system, basically by 15 or so your "fate"is
basically ordained...

[I'm 51 and when I went to junior and senior high school students were
tracked this way, it was quite common. At my school there were three
categories (I, II, and III, I being the college track), determined
primarily by tests and grades in primary school...]

But just because you can't go to college does not mean the end of life. For
example, Germany has good vocational/technical training programs. Something
we should do more of here in the States...



While that's true in the US as well, here there's an undercurrent of
"everyone should go to college", even if it's a two-year community
college, and career paths not involving the academic system are
looked down upon, sometimes.

Here in the US (Canada too), we also provide other inducements (some
controversial) to encourage students into higher education: grants,
low-interest loans, affirmative action, etc. I rarely hear about these
things in the context of the European educational system; perhaps
someone
can fill me in.


There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't
know anyone who went that route.

Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment
as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges.


I don't know about France, but I did read a news story about certain
German students who stayed in school (at a low cost to them), taking
classes for years, but not really making progress to a degree....



There are lots of 30 year - old students in Europe, many still living at
home with mum and dad...

And of course in some places like Italy, grown men still expect their
mothers to cater for their every need, even if they are married. This is
why Italian men generally make VERY lousy husbands*...

--
Best
Greg [*not as bad as Russian men, however...]


  #6  
Old July 29th, 2005, 10:27 PM
Go Fig
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article et,
Gregory Morrow
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

wrote:

Robert J Carpenter wrote:
"Gregory Morrow" wrote July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone
else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others.

I hope I have these details correct.

One thing left out of the list is that higher education in France is
much less expensive than the USA ... if you succeed at the entrance
exams. It doesn't threaten to bankrupt parents. Entrance to the
Grande Ecole system is VERY much a meritocracy. One takes two or
three years of post-high-school courses before sitting for the
entrance exams (2 days) for the Grandes Ecoles of one's choice. These
preparitory courses roughly correspond to the lower division in US
universities. The G.E. course itself typically lasts three years so
graduation is 5 or 6 years after high school graduation. Once in a
G.E., there seems to be a high likelyhood of graduation (sorta like
Harvard or MIT).


Isn't there a lot of "tracking" of students early in their school
career (say, from the early teens on) in Europe? The best students are
encouraged to take the harder classes, sit for the exams, etc., while
other students are encouraged to do "vocational/technical" things
instead?



Yes, there is a tracking system, basically by 15 or so your "fate"is
basically ordained...

[I'm 51 and when I went to junior and senior high school students were
tracked this way, it was quite common. At my school there were three
categories (I, II, and III, I being the college track), determined
primarily by tests and grades in primary school...]

But just because you can't go to college does not mean the end of life. For
example, Germany has good vocational/technical training programs.


They do and if you drop out of high school early, you are required to
talk an apprenticeship... however, of those I know in the former DDR
area... there just aren't jobs for them.

jay
Fri Jul 29, 2005



Something
we should do more of here in the States...



While that's true in the US as well, here there's an undercurrent of
"everyone should go to college", even if it's a two-year community
college, and career paths not involving the academic system are
looked down upon, sometimes.

Here in the US (Canada too), we also provide other inducements (some
controversial) to encourage students into higher education: grants,
low-interest loans, affirmative action, etc. I rarely hear about these
things in the context of the European educational system; perhaps
someone
can fill me in.


There is an alternative "easy in, easy to flunk out" system. I don't
know anyone who went that route.

Higher education in France is not a form of respectable unemployment
as we find in some lesser US liberal arts colleges.


I don't know about France, but I did read a news story about certain
German students who stayed in school (at a low cost to them), taking
classes for years, but not really making progress to a degree....



There are lots of 30 year - old students in Europe, many still living at
home with mum and dad...

And of course in some places like Italy, grown men still expect their
mothers to cater for their every need, even if they are married. This is
why Italian men generally make VERY lousy husbands*...

  #7  
Old July 29th, 2005, 10:52 PM
DDT Filled Mormons
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 13:11:59 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/op...rugman.html?hp

July 29, 2005

French Family Values

By PAUL KRUGMAN

"Americans tend to believe that we do everything better than anyone else.
That belief makes it hard for us to learn from others. For example, I've
found that many people refuse to believe that Europe has anything to teach
us about health care policy. After all, they say, how can Europeans be good
at health care when their economies are such failures?

Now, there's no reason a country can't have both an excellent health care
system and a troubled economy (or vice versa). But are European economies
really doing that badly?


For ****s sake. Yet another article that assumes France is
representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something
more complex that one country?
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
  #8  
Old July 29th, 2005, 11:23 PM
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Posts: n/a
Default


DDT Filled Mormons wrote:
Yet another article that assumes France is
representative of Europe. Why do Americans fail to grasp something
more complex that one country?


Does it *matter*? The whole article is a thumb sucker and a finger
waving
in the face about how "bad" Americans are.

Krugman could have put Rwanda in there instead of France and still have
the US looking bad....

  #10  
Old July 30th, 2005, 07:53 AM
AABNE
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Default

The answer is no. Americans are doing a lot of strutting these days, but a
head-to-head comparison between the economies of the United States and
Europe - France, in particular - shows that the big difference is in
priorities, not performance. We're talking about two highly productive
societies that have made a different tradeoff between work and family time.
And there's a lot to be said for the French choice.


Yes, 10% unemployment in France is giving people ample time to spend
with their families.
 




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