Immigration patrols on domestic Amtrak

On 2007-07-15 20:44:30 -0400, Merritt Mullen said:

In article ,
sechumlib wrote:

On 2007-07-15 15:49:11 -0400, "Stephen Sprunk" said:

What really jerks my chain is that folks on the US side demanded to see
my passport to allow me to _leave_ the US. They were far more
interested in me than the Canadians, who just waved me through without
even opening the booth's window.

What do you mean? We cross the border frequently. Going from the US to
Canada, we don't even go through a US checkpoint. How do you get sent
through one?

And Canada is not nearly that bored by us. We always get stopped and
asked where we're going, how long we're going to be in Canada and
whether we're bringing anything that might interest them.

That is because you are crossing at a point where there is no U.S. guard
to screen you first.

Nonsense. Every one of the crossings we use has a US guard, just across
the road.

On 2007-07-15 20:37:46 -0400, Merritt Mullen said:

In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

I've been stopped by such patrols on Interstates in California

I-5 and I-15 both have such facilities built right into the northbound
lanes of the interstates, about 50 mile north of the border in areas where
there are no practical detours off of the interstates.

What border? If they're on I-5 and I-15, they're not in Canada, so what
border are you talking about?

Alan S wrote:

I've been wandering back through the answers. To be honest,
I fail to see the problem or the hysteria over random
checking.

I would be much more nervous these days if checks like this
were not happening. That doesn't mean that I agree with the
tedious, ineffective and mindless security checks at
airports - but real security and intelligence work has to
happen if we don't want repeats of 9/11 and 7/7. And that
includes random checking that should not be predictable, and
thus avoidable, by those it is intended to find.

Perhaps you could make your case. Whom is it intended to find? What
makes you think it's effective?

In article ,
Merritt Mullen wrote:

Where does it say that? That applies only if you board without having
your ID checked by a station agent, and, in my experience, is not rigidly
followed. Of course, it there is some reason to believe you are using
tickets that are not yours, you will be asked for ID.

There are random ID checks onboard required by the TSA. They are only
checked when the ticket is collected.

On 16 Jul 2007 02:06:25 GMT, "Adam H. Kerman"
wrote:

Alan S wrote:

I've been wandering back through the answers. To be honest,
I fail to see the problem or the hysteria over random
checking.

I would be much more nervous these days if checks like this
were not happening. That doesn't mean that I agree with the
tedious, ineffective and mindless security checks at
airports - but real security and intelligence work has to
happen if we don't want repeats of 9/11 and 7/7. And that
includes random checking that should not be predictable, and
thus avoidable, by those it is intended to find.

Perhaps you could make your case. Whom is it intended to find?

Anyone intending to perform a terrorist act.

What makes you think it's effective?

Read what I said again - I don't think much of the present
system is effective at all. However, covert surveillance,
deep intelligence and random checking is likely, in my
opinion, to be more effective than the sort of nonsense we
see at airports.

Consider the difference between the action taken prior to
9/11 by US authorities, and the pre-emptive action taken
he
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/.../australia.php
Or the arrests this week.

Not that I'm saying we are necessarily better, maybe we were
just luckier. Also note the preparations for APEC occurring
in Sydney; that experience makes me doubt the wisdom of ever
holding such a conference in a major city in the future.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...833332676.html
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...006009,00.html

Not a good week for tourists to be visiting Sydney if you
aren't attending the conference.


Cheers, Alan, Australia
--
http://loraltraveloz.blogspot.com/
latest: Mossman Gorge in the Daintree Rainforest
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
latest: Self-Testing and Type 2 Management

"PeterL" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 14, 7:32 pm, "Bill in Schenectady" wrote:
"Fred Ellis" wrote in message

...





Bill in Schenectady wrote:

I just returned to my upstate New York home from a cross country
vacation
by
rail. I'll have other posts in various newsgroups about aspects of
the
trip. But I wanted to comment about this incident.

We were on the Lake Shore Limited, traveling from Chicago to
Schenectady
(the train goes on to New York City) when, just after the Buffalo
stop,
the
train stopped and two uniformed immigration patrol officers boarded
and
walked through the coach class cars asking each person if he or she is
an
American citizen. They did not ask for papers or identification. I
heard
that they did take someone off the train from another car.

I spoke to the conductor about this since it further delayed a train
that
was already running 45 minutes late. The conductor said that it
doesn't
happen for every train, but it happens frequently. He also mentioned
that
the officers do not go through the first class sleeper cars.

Legally, I don't think traveling by Amtrak is any different than
driving
on
highways. You don't see roadblocks on the nation's interstates
(except
for
some poorly thought out ones on the interstates leading from Canada
and,
presumably, from Mexico). This train never crossed a border. And the
officers did not bother with the presumably wealthier sleeper
passengers.

(Snipped)

--
Bill in Schenectady

You must not have travel on any of the interstate highways or US Routes
in the southwest part of the country. The Border Patrol has numerous
elaborate check points that are manned 24/7. If you are east bound on
IH 10 from El Paso, there is permanent check point station near Sierra
Blanca that you have to go through. I have been through at least a
half
dozen or more of these permanent facilities while traveling through the
southwestern part of the country.

Fred Ellis
--

I do frequently travel on I-87 in northern New York's Adirondack
Mountains.
For a while there was a permanent road block about 50 miles south of the
Canadian border...on a blind curve in a very rural area. After a semi
plowed into a stopped car, killing several, local uproar over this stop
forced the feds to shut it down at least some of the time. I'm going up
that way tomorrow so I'll see if they have reopened it.

I still think it's dumb. Protect the borders at the borders

That's a dumb statement. So you are saying they should not raid
illegal sweat shops in NYC or LA for illegal immigrants?

You just hit the nail on the head. Where are the illegal immigrants? They
are on the farms, in the sweat shops, cleaning your houses and keeping your
lawns and gardens. However, the government really doesn't want to hit too
hard in those locations because we LIKE the cheap labor! So they do some
token busts here and there just to give the public the illusion that they
are doing their job. Same with the road, train and bus stops. It is token.
It is an illusion. It is purely for show.

"Fred Ellis" wrote in message
...
DevilsPGD wrote:

In message Fred Ellis
wrote:

You must not have travel on any of the interstate highways or US Routes
in the southwest part of the country. The Border Patrol has numerous
elaborate check points that are manned 24/7. If you are east bound on
IH 10 from El Paso, there is permanent check point station near Sierra
Blanca that you have to go through. I have been through at least a half
dozen or more of these permanent facilities while traveling through the
southwestern part of the country.

And if the driver presents valid identification and everyone else
refuses, then what?

--

You must not have gone through one of these Border Patrol check points
before. All you do is drive up to the Border Patrol officer, lower your
window and he asks if you are a U.S. citizen. You answer yes while he
looks inside your vehicle to see if there are any other passengers.
Then you tell the officer to have a nice day, raise your window and you
drive on.

If you have passengers in the vehicle, the officer asks them the same
question and they would of course reply yes. Of course this works only
if you and your passengers are of Anglo-Saxon descent and speak english
with an American accent. Other wise the officer might detain you for
further identification and/or questioning.

In all the times I have gone through these highway check points I have
never been ask to show identification or proof of citizenship.


So what about those legal Americans who speak with an accent and don't look
like most of us? This still reeks of totalitarian governments making people
show their papers.

wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 14, 6:44 pm, "Bill in Schenectady" wrote:

We were on the Lake Shore Limited, traveling from Chicago to Schenectady
(the train goes on to New York City) when, just after the Buffalo stop,
the
train stopped and two uniformed immigration patrol officers boarded and
walked through the coach class cars asking each person if he or she is an
American citizen.

And this surprises you because...?

Amtrak official policy (as stated on their website) is that
government-issued photo ID is required to purchase a ticket.
Moreover, passengers must produce valid ID
("Papers Please!") any time they are asked to do
so while on the train.

Personally, I never use Amtrak. If I want to
experience Soviet-era travel, I'll go visit
North Korea instead.

Try getting in an airline without a photo ID. This isn't just Amtrak. If
anything, their policies are much less restrictive than the airlines.

"Merritt Mullen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Martin D. Pay wrote:

Does that mean a US-government issued ID? If so, the tentative
plans my wife and I are making to use Amtrack for internal travel
(rather than fly internally within the USA) on our next visit
won't be possible...

No, it does not mean that. The US does not have federally-issued ID. It
only means that you need some form of official photo ID (usually a
state-issued driver's license, in the case of US residents) when picking
up your ticket prior to boarding the train. Probably a British driver's
license would work, but of course a British passport would also do the
job.

And, contrary to the other poster's remarks, Amtrak is not in the habit of
demanding ID from its en route passengers.

Merritt

We boarded trains at five different locations during our cross country and
back train trip. Only in Chicago did they ask for a photo ID before
boarding, and never asked for it on the train. They did not ask for a photo
ID at the following locations:

Schenectady, NY (point of origin...although my wife had to show an ID and
sign the tickets when she picked them up)

Malta, Montana
Portland, Oregon
East Glacier Montana.

Only in Chicago when changing trains.

Also, I frequently take Amtrak to and from New York City and have never been
asked for an ID.

"sechumlib" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-14 22:53:17 -0400, "Bill in Schenectady"
said:

Relatively few illegal immigrants come over from Canada. I rarely hear
of
anyone being caught due to checkpoints near the Canadian border (or even
at
the border itself). In fact, the guy with the TB case came across on the
I-87 crossing from Canada into New York State. He was on a watch list,
and
border patrol just waved him through.

There was also the little matter of an intended Arab bomber trying to get
through a checkpoint in Washington state back in 1999 or 2000.
Fortunately, he was caught at the border and put out of circulation.


Yes I do remember that. Fortunately they do catch some. Also, fortunately,
many intended terrorists are stupid.